Hoping to pick someone's brain if possible

**enaid** · 28th August 2016, 02:08:AM

Re: Hoping to pick someone's brain if possible

Hi, just wondered why the person is now refusing to stick to the agreement is there a reason ?

**des8** · 28th August 2016, 06:54:AM

Re: Hoping to pick someone's brain if possible

Hi and welcome.

I don't suppose this caring agreement was in writing, as that would make things easier.

If the dispute can't be resolved amicably the owner could initiate court proceedings for recovery.
This could be action for breach of contract, or a simple order for a declaration of ownership.
In law, a dog is regarded as a ‘chattel’ ie. an item that is owned. In the event of a dispute on who should have custody, the Court would consider who is the dog’s owner.
Such a case is likely to be heard in the Small Claims Court (part of the County Court) and the claim would be for:
a)a declaration of ownership, and
b)an order for the return of the dog, and could include
c)an order for damages for wrongful retention of the dog/breach ofcontract

**enaid** · 28th August 2016, 07:03:AM

Re: Hoping to pick someone's brain if possible

As Des says that would be the way to go if the owner wants the dog back, I would prefer if both of them considered what was best for the dog

**Kati** · 28th August 2016, 08:20:AM

Re: Hoping to pick someone's brain if possible

[MENTION=39710]des8[/MENTION] is right ... without a written agreement there is little the owner can do bar taking the woman to Small Claims I'm afraid :sorry:. Lots of smaller Animal Rescues (such as the one my family runs) have stopped fostering out animals due to difficulties with fosterers.

**Openlaw15** · 28th August 2016, 08:37:AM

Re: Hoping to pick someone's brain if possible

Originally posted by taz_in_2001 View Post

Hi, I'm not overly sure this is in the right section to be honest or whether it's relevant here but I'm thinking it's possession.

I'm hoping to pick someone's brain. My neighbour is in a pickle, she has a Bichon and due to work commitments 3 months ago made an agreement with a person for them to look after her dog full time, the dog live with them on the provision that once a month she has him back for a full weekend. The dog would always remain hers, she still pays his insurance, his vet bills etc. Now here is where her dilemma comes, this lady has now gone back on this agreement and won't allow her to see him, this person has tried to change his microchip over which she succeeded in doing until my neighbour questioned it and it's now been reverted back to her name with Petlog as it was done fraudulently.

She was talking to me about it tonight and was wondering what her next steps would be as it's a civil matter according to the police. This had me thinking of when I was part of a dog rescue the clause we had in the adoption agreement of basically if the adopter doesn't abide by the agreement then the rescue has authority to take the dog back.

Does anybody work with rescues so would know how a rescue would go about it, or anyone know in general what happens when someone goes back on an agreement with a live possession etc, would you go to a solicitor?, what would you say?, is it through county courts etc that allows you to cease the dog.

She's very distraught at the moment as she's now worried that she's never going to see him again, so I'm trying to help in anyway I can.

I hope that this makes sense

Thank you

In addition to the civil route via a claim in contract, as des8 indicates, you friend's circumstances may also be a crime under s.1, Theft Act 1968, and or fraud under the 'Fraud Act 2006.'

Criminal law defines 'theft' as 'intent' to 'dishonestly' and 'permanently depriving the 'owner' of 'property.' There are 5 elements therefore to theft offence. Property includes a dog therefore, but the defence to theft is 'consent' by the owner. The facts: agreement for the 'expensive' Bichon dog to be looked after 'temporarily.' Your friend micro-chipped Dog to indicate ownership of property. Friend still pays for vet and financially maintains said dog. Evidence: your friend's neighbour saw an attempt to change the ownership via another microchip. Witness: the neighbour who witnessed this could be a used to bring a charge for theft or attempted theft (inchoate offence, ie incomplete offence, see below) or actual theft., of the Bichon.

Remedy: A solicitor who specialises in stolen dogs could put enough pressure on the police to investigate the matter either as theft/ attempted theft even if the neighbour tries to use the defence that they had 'consent' to 'ownership' of the 'dog.' Defence of person: assumed ownership, so completed the transaction with transferral of the chip. Problem with person's 'consent' defence, expensive dog with no money (ie no consideration) offered or received; your friend was still paying for the dog to be maintained, for vet. bills, and generally looking after the dog. Here's a website with some useful and relevant links. http://www.dogtheftaction.com/conten...action-346.htm

Dog could be returned if the police interview the person under a theft or attempted theft charge. If you take this through the civil courts yourself, it's a less expensive remedy than paying an expensive criminal lawyer. Contract claim may not guarantee the return of the dog, as the courts may assume you gave up ownership, especially if this person uses a solicitor.

Fraud as an alternative, under said law is defined as 'misrepresentation for a gain or loss, mainly. If there is no evidence for theft, the police will look for alternatives such as 'fraud' or attempted theft (incomplete crimes, ie inchoate). Facts: attempted to change ownership but it failed once your friend became aware. Fraud does not require the act to be executed, so the fact that the chip was not transferred into your friend's name does not mean that there was no fraud.

**taz_in_2001** · 28th August 2016, 10:53:AM

Re: Hoping to pick someone's brain if possible

Originally posted by enaid View Post

Hi, just wondered why the person is now refusing to stick to the agreement is there a reason ?

She wanted him home earlier the last time my neighbour had him which was 4 weeks ago and she patronised her, held her hand and told her it's time she started to let him go because he is not her dog anymore to which my neighbour replied he is my dog, you have him on agreement, a bit of a discussion and this is now the outcome sadly

**taz_in_2001** · 28th August 2016, 11:00:AM

Re: Hoping to pick someone's brain if possible

Originally posted by Openlaw15 View Post

Evidence: your friend's neighbour saw an attempt to change the ownership via another microchip. Witness: the neighbour who witnessed this could be a used to bring a charge for theft or attempted theft (inchoate offence, ie incomplete offence, see below) or actual theft., of the Bichon.

However this didn't happen. Nobody witnessed her changing over the pet log. The first she knew about it was when she phoned to check something with them and they explained that it had been changed, quickly reverted back to my neighbours name because the person who has her dog had done it fraudulently

**Openlaw15** · 28th August 2016, 11:21:AM

Re: Hoping to pick someone's brain if possible

Originally posted by taz_in_2001 View Post

However this didn't happen. Nobody witnessed her changing over the pet log. The first she knew about it was when she phoned to check something with them and they explained that it had been changed, quickly reverted back to my neighbours name because the person who has her dog had done it fraudulently

Them - the place that does the micro-chipping - would be witnesses. Even a statement from them under the hearsay rules is permissible as crim. evidence. It doesn't matter if the person is charged or convicted of either of the offences, it's the idea that police in uniform are interviewing them, which may cause them alarm. If they're a civilised person a police interview will scare someone, which effect for your friend could potentially be the return of the dog, which is the preferable remedy after-all.

If that were me i'd have let it slip that i'd be calling the police if the dog is not returned, as kind of bluff. Only afterwards would I have contacted the police. Did you friend do this?

**Openlaw15** · 28th August 2016, 12:58:PM

Re: Hoping to pick someone's brain if possible

Originally posted by taz_in_2001 View Post

She wanted him home earlier the last time my neighbour had him which was 4 weeks ago and she patronised her, held her hand and told her it's time she started to let him go because he is not her dog anymore to which my neighbour replied he is my dog, you have him on agreement, a bit of a discussion and this is now the outcome sadly

What made the other person - who has possession - say ''it's time she (your friend) should let him (the Bichon dog), go (go where?). Why is your friend leaving a dog with any person whether for agreement or anything else, where this person (the one with possession) is clearly manipulative? Why did said person also state 'he is not her (your friend's) dog anymore? You say the last time, how many times had these 'dog stay'/ agreements been going on? Did said person also hint previously that they believed they had ownership of the dog. Was the person receiving any money (consideration, a legal term) for providing 'dog stay' services? Is this s business or is just any Joe public on the street who is offering these services? Are they paid services? Does said person do this for more than one animal, ie I am trying to establish if it is a business?

**taz_in_2001** · 28th August 2016, 16:26:PM

Re: Hoping to pick someone's brain if possible

Originally posted by Openlaw15 View Post

What made the other person - who has possession - say ''it's time she (your friend) should let him (the Bichon dog), go (go where?). Why is your friend leaving a dog with any person whether for agreement or anything else, where this person (the one with possession) is clearly manipulative? Why did said person also state 'he is not her (your friend's) dog anymore? You say the last time, how many times had these 'dog stay'/ agreements been going on? Did said person also hint previously that they believed they had ownership of the dog. Was the person receiving any money (consideration, a legal term) for providing 'dog stay' services? Is this s business or is just any Joe public on the street who is offering these services? Are they paid services? Does said person do this for more than one animal, ie I am trying to establish if it is a business?

This other person is her best friends mum, hence why she thought it would be OK to leave her dog with this lady on the provision she has him back every four weeks for a full weekend.

The agreement started 3 months ago and she had been sticking to the agreement for the past two months until now, this is her weekend and she has been refused access to said dog.

The person whom is looking after the dog I assume has now become possessive over him and don't want to share him with the owner, she has been contacted by the lady now saying I do not want you to lose contact with him but unless you sign him over to me you can't see him.

It's not a business, she isn't being paid for it. There was an agreement made that the dog would go live with this lady on the provision my neighbour has access every month for a full weekend, my neighbour pays vet bills, insurance etc. The agreement was made in the dogs interests due to her working commitments at that time she did not realise this lady was the way she is at said time because it was her best friends mum and who would spoil their daughters long term friendship right?... well sadly she was wrong

**Openlaw15** · 29th August 2016, 08:58:AM

Re: Hoping to pick someone's brain if possible

Originally posted by taz_in_2001 View Post

This other person is her best friends mum, hence why she thought it would be OK to leave her dog with this lady on the provision she has him back every four weeks for a full weekend.

The agreement started 3 months ago and she had been sticking to the agreement for the past two months until now, this is her weekend and she has been refused access to said dog.

The person whom is looking after the dog I assume has now become possessive over him and don't want to share him with the owner, she has been contacted by the lady now saying I do not want you to lose contact with him but unless you sign him over to me you can't see him.

It's not a business, she isn't being paid for it. There was an agreement made that the dog would go live with this lady on the provision my neighbour has access every month for a full weekend, my neighbour pays vet bills, insurance etc. The agreement was made in the dogs interests due to her working commitments at that time she did not realise this lady was the way she is at said time because it was her best friends mum and who would spoil their daughters long term friendship right?... well sadly she was wrong

I would start putting pressure on this manipulative woman if that were me. This is not the end of the matter. The manipulative mum should be told that this is a free country and that your friend will use the courts to bring about justice whatever it takes. In these circumstances the court is likely to award some form of costs order, ie time, preparation, expenses, in favour of your friend. If she uses a solicitor, this lawyer can claim for his costs. So, by holding onto property that it is not hers, the court will likely come down hard on the one with unfair possession. Your friend has the options below.

On the facts, it's doubtful that there's a contract. Contract requires offer, acceptance, and consideration (usually money), in addition to contractual intention. This is merely a voluntary arrangement with your daughter's best friend's mum. So when the police are saying it's a civil matter, the police are saying it's a remedy you can seek via the civil courts, ie not criminal, so it would be at the local County Court. In your situation, it may be a claim for a tort, ie a wrong done against you. Tort (from the French, ie 'wrong') means 'damages' for losses usually. The court has alternatively what are known as 'equity' rules, which means the court has certain discretion (the court decides if it wants to) hear cases where the law itself is not straight forward or too harsh. Tort may not have the power to return your dog but the court using equity rules most certainly can. Call the numbers on that website I provided you with to start: http://www.dogtheftaction.com/conten...action-346.htm

**enaid** · 29th August 2016, 09:06:AM

Re: Hoping to pick someone's brain if possible

Just my opinion but if I was only able to look after a dog for 2 days out of 30 I would be delighted it had got a good home.
What happens when the lady is gets holidays from work, does she then want the dog with her all the time?

**Openlaw15** · 29th August 2016, 09:16:AM

Re: Hoping to pick someone's brain if possible

Originally posted by enaid View Post

Just my opinion but if I was only able to look after a dog for 2 days out of 30 I would be delighted it had got a good home.
What happens when the lady is gets holidays from work, does she then want the dog with her all the time?

If the lady cannot look after the Bichon then she can have him returned and sell him to whomever she chooses.

**wales01man** · 29th August 2016, 09:35:AM

Re: Hoping to pick someone's brain if possible

All this talk of legal action not very helpful in the short term the lady wants the dog back not a long drawn out legal battle with respect Openlaw at the moment they want an easy way to get dog back I personally would go and get it as she has no doubt proof of ownership remember as far as pets are concerned most pet owners would have got it back as soon as this started to turn nasty

Hoping to pick someone's brain if possible

Hoping to pick someone's brain if possible

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