Council demanding HMO regs for house of with 4 sharers. - Only applies to 5 or more?

[marbles]

Hi

I recently rented out a house to 4 sharers via an estate agent on an annual AST. The council out of the blue turned up with a demand of entry order to inspect the property 2 weeks after the tenants moved in. The property has recently been renovated and is a standard private residence.
The council are now saying that I must install additional fire and safety requirements - mains fire alarm in each room & emergency lightinig etc, which normally only applies to a large HMO of 5 or more. All of the documentation on the gov.uk and local council website states the same and the council have not been able to provide me any documentation stating new requirements for 4 sharerers.

Is the council correct? My estate agent is convinced they have thier wires crossed but the contact at the council is adamant. I've also asked to be shown the docs with the legal authority to impose the requirements but was told there arent any and I just to comply with their asks. Seems very odd. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

thanks

[stevemLS]

Re: Council demanding HMO regs for house of with 4 sharers. - Only applies to 5 or m

HMO licensing is subject to local variation so much is at the discretion of your local authority.

The power to designate areas subject to additional requirements is s56 of the Housing Act 2004.

The test of whether a house is an HMO is at s254 onwards.

The standard definition is if it is occupied by 3 or more people who are not part of the same household.

[Kati]

Re: Council demanding HMO regs for house of with 4 sharers. - Only applies to 5 or m

https://www.gov.uk/house-in-multiple-occupation-licence

A house in multiple occupation is a property rented out by at least 3 people who are not from 1 ‘household’ (eg a family) but share facilities like the bathroom and kitchen. It’s sometimes called a ‘house share’.You must have a licence if you’re renting out a large HMO. Your property is defined as a large HMO if all of the following apply:

• it’s rented to 5 or more people who form more than 1 household
• it’s at least 3 storeys high
• tenants share toilet, bathroom or kitchen facilities

Even if your property is smaller and rented to fewer people, you may still need a licence depending on the area. Check with your council.

as [MENTION=48758]stevemLS[/MENTION] says ... the rules for licencing a HMO vary in different areas - I think you'll have to do what they're asking :sorry:

[marbles]

Re: Council demanding HMO regs for house of with 4 sharers. - Only applies to 5 or m

Thanks for your help so far. The council do not have any stated regulations for 3 or 4 sharers and their website also states it applies from 5. I did quite a bit of research before I bought the property to ensure that I wouldn't need to do all of the extra pieces (emergency lighting and mains alarms in every room is a huge and costly job), so am wondering how they can enforce something without any guidelines in place? The council said they are looking to bring in new requirements from next year, but they don't have any docs they can share now. Seems awfully unfair and bizarre that it can be legal requirement if there are no stated docs. None of the estate agents Ive spoken to have heard of requirements in the borough for 3 and 4 shareres and I know the neighbouring property (also rented) does not have the pieces in place.

Can they still enforce without showing making public their requirements?

[Kati]

Re: Council demanding HMO regs for house of with 4 sharers. - Only applies to 5 or m

Can you name the council??

I'd suggest contacting the CEO with a complaint ... if they haven't implemented these changes yet, IMO they shouldn't be forcing you to do the work :tinysmile_hmm_t2:

[wales01man]

Re: Council demanding HMO regs for house of with 4 sharers. - Only applies to 5 or m

The rules are there for the safety of the tenants do you not think it may be a good idea to install the requirements before you let it out did you consult the Council before you let the rooms out in some areas the rules are local ones .

[Crazy council]

Re: Council demanding HMO regs for house of with 4 sharers. - Only applies to 5 or m

Hi

Council are correct Three occupiers from more than one family unit. The property will require fire doors, connected fire alarm, emergency lighting, Also, the council tax is different, the LL is responsible , not the tenants.

Licencing my vary area to area, but am fairly sure the fire regs are standard.

[stevemLS]

Re: Council demanding HMO regs for house of with 4 sharers. - Only applies to 5 or m

The standard requirements are here. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2.../contents/made

Once again, as with all legislation, it is for interpretation: the duty with respect to safety (Reg 4) is to "take such measures as are reasonably required" and the reasonable requirement is imposed by the council. (s67 Housing Act 2005)

To fail to comply with the requirement is an offence attracting a maximum fine of £5,000.

[Kati]

Re: Council demanding HMO regs for house of with 4 sharers. - Only applies to 5 or m

from the link [MENTION=48758]stevemLS[/MENTION] posted:

4.—
(1) The manager must ensure that all means of escape from fire in the HMO are—

(a) kept free from obstruction; and

(b) maintained in good order and repair.

(2) The manager must ensure that any fire fighting equipment and fire alarms are maintained in good working order.
(3) Subject to paragraph (6), the manager must ensure that all notices indicating the location of means of escape from fire are displayed in positions within the HMO that enable them to be clearly visible to the occupiers.
(4) The manager must take all such measures as are reasonably required to protect the occupiers of the HMO from injury, having regard to—

(a) the design of the HMO;

(b) the structural conditions in the HMO; and

(c) the number of occupiers in the HMO.

(5) In performing the duty imposed by paragraph (4) the manager must in particular—

(a) in relation to any roof or balcony that is unsafe, either ensure that it is made safe or take all reasonable measures to prevent access to it for so long as it remains unsafe; and

(b) in relation to any window the sill of which is at or near floor level, ensure that bars or other such safeguards as may be necessary are provided to protect the occupiers against the danger of accidents which may be caused in connection with such windows.

(6) The duty imposed by paragraph (3) does not apply where the HMO has four or fewer occupiers.

[Crazy council]

Re: Council demanding HMO regs for house of with 4 sharers. - Only applies to 5 or m

One of the things you have to be very carfull with when dealing with hmos is the insurance conditions, and making sure there kept to. The council decide what they class it at, and you have to fight it.. if appropriate. After reading the above, i will try did out the fire plan we had done, there is something else i need to check as well

There sometime are schemes with councils to get the funding to get te property in the right conditions for a hmo.

[seduraed]

Re: Council demanding HMO regs for house of with 4 sharers. - Only applies to 5 or m

I'm in cambridge and they interpret the regulations such that if the sharers each a have different tenancy agreement then a higher standard of fire regulations apply . If they all have a common bond eg same college, friends before taking lease . Then a lower standard applies . I feel for you the doors come in at about £40 from Wikes, plus closers and fitting. You may be able to get away with a fire door to the kitchen a fire blanket and extinguishers . Do you allow coooking in rooms . Do you have a communal space in the house ? These are all factors . Make sure you have thumb turn locks on all the external doors and that the bedroom doors can be opened from the inside without the use of a key .

[45002]

Re: Council demanding HMO regs for house of with 4 sharers. - Only applies to 5 or m

For Reference

http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums...s-in-Southwark

[marbles]

Re: Council demanding HMO regs for house of with 4 sharers. - Only applies to 5 or m

Hi, thanks. yes it is Southwark council. Raising a complaint is a good suggestion - thanks

[marbles]

Re: Council demanding HMO regs for house of with 4 sharers. - Only applies to 5 or m

The rules are there for the safety of the tenants do you not think it may be a good idea to install the requirements before you let it out did you consult the Council before you let the rooms out in some areas the rules are local ones .

The property is a standard residential house rented to a group of professional sharers - its not rented by the room (on an AST). Yes I did check the rules before hand - the gov.uk and own local council docs show that fire regs apply for 5 sharers or more, hence the query now

[wales01man]

Re: Council demanding HMO regs for house of with 4 sharers. - Only applies to 5 or m

Your problem is not with me but the council worth checking and getting it all in writing if its a HMO you will have to carry out the work .