Can I decline ownership of a property bequeathed to me in a Will?

[enquirer]

Re: Can I decline ownership of a property bequeathed to me in a Will?

I doubt very much that the CAB are competent to handle this.

[Inca]

Re: Can I decline ownership of a property bequeathed to me in a Will?

I doubt very much that the CAB are competent to handle this.

Totally agree,enquirer.

[ZED]

Re: Can I decline ownership of a property bequeathed to me in a Will?

I've previously encountered problems with finding a 'good' solicitor though. Presumably the one who dealt with the purchase in the first place wasn't particularly 'customer friendly' or he'd have alerted Mum to the pitfalls of entering into this sort of agreement?
Appointing a solicitor must be a bit like hiring a tradesman ... you really don’t know how good or bad they are until they’ve got stuck into the job.

[ZED]

Re: Can I decline ownership of a property bequeathed to me in a Will?

This morning I received a letter/documents from Retirement Security Ltd.
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The amount that they claim is owed to them in 'service charges' is £37,850.61p.
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One of the documents included is a "Summary of Tenants' Rights and Obligations". Apparently this document must, by law, accompany a demand for service charges ... but as may be expected the ‘Rights and Obligations’ are very much weighted in favour of ‘the landlord’.
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I’d asked for details of the ways in which the empty flat was/is being marketed to potential new owners ... and basically their answer boils down to 'not very much has been/is being done'. They provided a list of their actions: these actions include things like “advertising in church magazines” and “sponsoring/hosting local events eg. Fundraising for local charities” (?) ... and (bizarrely) “marketing to large employers in the area, targeting the sandwich generation”. (Why are they targeting ‘employers’ when the flat is part of a ‘very sheltered accommodation’ complex aimed at retired folk? And who are/what is “the sandwich generation”?)
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And then (even more bizarrely) further down the list of ‘marketing strategies’ is: “Completion of pension credit applications before and after they have moved to [the property]” and “Assisting with the completion of Attendance Allowance applications ; this is done for people before they move in (this assistance is given free of charge)”. How does filling-in forms for state benefits relate to selling a vacant flat?
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Anyway, it seems that Retirement Security don’t know what % of the flat was actually owned by Mum (?) ... so I have to apply to the Land Registry for this information.
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They also state that the last 2-bedroomed apartment that was sold (ie: a flat similar to Mum’s) "achieved’ £180,000". They don’t give a date for the sale ... but that sum actually represents a stonking great loss on the £210,000-£220,000 that the flats were sold for when they were first built in 1997!
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Still waiting to hear from The Woolwich re: the amount of mortgage debt. (I have an inkling that it will be approx £60,000 ... maybe more: but certainly not less).
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So, at the moment my feeling is that it’s very unlikely that there will be any money coming my way when the flat is eventually sold ... so I’m tempted to sit back and do nothing at all!

[ZED]

Re: Can I decline ownership of a property bequeathed to me in a Will?

Just a quick update ....
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I’ve established that there’s no equity in Mum’s flat.
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Went to the CAB yesterday and emerged in a very worried state as it was suggested that by obtaining probate I had inadvertently made myself legally responsible for all matters to do with Mum’s will ... and there was no way that I could just shelve this responsibility.
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So I carried out an online search for a suitable solicitor. During the search I discovered the Co-op's website for their legal services, and was pleased to see that they offer free initial advice (over the phone) ... I was particularly pleased to see that they have a specialist probate law department!

http://www.co-operative.coop/legalse...FTMRtAodwDYAFw


I ‘phoned this morning ... and it seems that legally I’m not responsible for anything to do with Mum’s flat. As it was jointly owned by Retirement Security Ltd, they are now wholly responsible for dealing with it – this includes paying the mortgage debt owed to The Woolwich, and the water rates etc. .

(My only responsibility now is to deal with ‘the rest of the estate’ ... and as there aren’t any savings, stocks & shares, investments, insurance policies, etc: there’s nothing for me to do.)

[wales01man]

Re: Can I decline ownership of a property bequeathed to me in a Will?

Looks like its time to walk away from it all let the Woolwich and reirement security fight it out
Good luck from now on

[PlanB]

Re: Can I decline ownership of a property bequeathed to me in a Will?

Just a quick update .... I’ve established that there’s no equity in Mum’s flat.

Says who?

[PlanB]

Re: Can I decline ownership of a property bequeathed to me in a Will?

I received a letter/documents from Retirement Security Ltd. The amount that they claim is owed to them in 'service charges' is £37,850.61p. . . . .

. . . Anyway, it seems that Retirement Security don’t know what % of the flat was actually owned by Mum (?) ... so I have to apply to the Land Registry for this information.

. . . . They also state that the last 2-bedroomed apartment that was sold (ie: a flat similar to Mum’s) "achieved’ £180,000". They don’t give a date for the sale ... but that sum actually represents a stonking great loss on the £210,000-£220,000 that the flats were sold for when they were first built in 1997!

. . . . Still waiting to hear from The Woolwich re: the amount of mortgage debt. (I have an inkling that it will be approx £60,000 ... maybe more: but certainly not less).
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So, at the moment my feeling is that it’s very unlikely that there will be any money coming my way when the flat is eventually sold ...

I'm rubbish with maths but if the property is worth 180k, the mortgage is 60k that leaves 120k, and if your mother owned 75% of the property then she owned 75% of the remaining equity which is 90k. If Retirement Solutions want to charge nearly 38k for "service charges" that would still leave 52k so why do you think there'll be no money left from any potential sale

Further more those "service charges" of 38k are not a secured loan. Retirement Solutions would have no legal right to help themselves to the money from the sale of the flat would they? Unless of course you hand back the keys and let it get repossessed by the bank which will have no incentive to prevent them taking the money. I think Retirement Solutions would have to claim from the estate (and the amount can be challenged) but you've already had probate granted so I don't know whether they've missed the boat if the "debt" wasn't included in the estate.

You need more information and advice before you throw in the towel. Have you contacted Age UK's free legal helpline yet?

[ZED]

Re: Can I decline ownership of a property bequeathed to me in a Will?

I'm rubbish with maths but if the property is worth 180k, the mortgage is 60k that leaves 120k, and if your mother owned 75% of the property then she owned 75% of the remaining equity which is 90k. If Retirement Solutions want to charge nearly 38k for "service charges" that would still leave 52k so why do you think there'll be no money left from any potential sale

Further more those "service charges" of 38k are not a secured loan. Retirement Solutions would have no legal right to help themselves to the money from the sale of the flat would they? Unless of course you hand back the keys and let it get repossessed by the bank which will have no incentive to prevent them taking the money. I think Retirement Solutions would have to claim from the estate (and the amount can be challenged) but you've already had probate granted so I don't know whether they've missed the boat if the "debt" wasn't included in the estate.

You need more information and advice before you throw in the towel. Have you contacted Age UK's free legal helpline yet?

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I must admit, I was including the service charge debt when I concluded that there was no equity in the property! (And the solicitor I spoke to didn’t suggest otherwise).
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My daughter doesn’t believe Mum’s share of the flat was 75% ... she thinks it was more like 50%. (This is just an impression she has, from conversations with Mum). I assumed Retirement Security would be able to confirm the %, but in their letter they say: “ Retirement Security does not hold the information on equity shares held on apartments.”
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It seems there is (or was) a 3^rd party involved ... a firm called “Bovis Homes Ltd”. I have a copy of a document (sent to me by R.S Ltd) called:
“HM Land Registry. Land Registration Acts 1925-1986”. (Although Mum signed this document on 27^th March 1997!)
The document states that it’s a lease between Bovis Homes Ltd (Lansdown Road, Cheltenham, Gloucestershire GL50 2JA) “hereinafter called The Landlord” ; Forum Court Ltd. (Forum Court is actually the name of the building where Mum’s flat is situated) reg. office at 40 Rother Street, Stratford upon Avon, CV37 6LP “hereinafter called The Management Company “; and my Mum “hereinafter called The Owner”.
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The document is written in very archaic English, so it’s difficult for a normal person to read/understand it, but from what I can gather it’s 24 pages (A4) of ‘rules’ describing what owners can and cannot do to their property ... eg: “In the fifth year of the said term and thereafter at least once in every five years and in the last year therof (howsoever determined) to re-decorate all inside parts of the Demised Premises with two coats at least of good quality paint in a good and workmanlike manner or paper the parts usually papered (if any) with suitable paper of good quality”. (Oooops ... Mum’s flat was emulsioned throughout with one coat of Wilkinson’s ‘budget’ range of paints!)
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I guess at some point since 1997, Retirement Security Ltd have taken over as either The Landlord or The Management Company (or both?) as there’s no mention of them.
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However, at no point in this document is there a reference to what % of the flat was owned by Mum.
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Incidentally, not only did Mum get a mortgage to pay for this flat, but she also gave Bovis Homes Ltd. the bungalow that she was living in, prior to her move. They sold it for £60,375. (This was a very low price for a semi-detached bungalow in 1997 ... apparently the low price was due to the fact that the surveyor for Bovis Homes Ltd claimed there was “a damp problem”).

[ZED]

Re: Can I decline ownership of a property bequeathed to me in a Will?

NB: Sorry about all the extraneous dots in my posts. For some reason I'm not able to make paragraphs on this forum ... hence I have to type my comments onto a word document; 'force' paragraphs by using a full-stop; and then cut & paste onto here (otherwise everything I type runs into one huge block of text).

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Can I decline ownership of a property bequeathed to me in a Will?

NB: Sorry about all the extraneous dots in my posts. For some reason I'm not able to make paragraphs on this forum ... hence I have to type my comments onto a word document; 'force' paragraphs by using a full-stop; and then cut & paste onto here (otherwise everything I type runs into one huge block of text).

What browser are you using?

If you are using Word to type, there is an option to paste text from Word, it's the 4th one frm the left on the top row of icons. :nerd:

[ostell]

Re: Can I decline ownership of a property bequeathed to me in a Will?

Done some digging in my old bank accounts and the service charge for a flat I used to own was £77 per month in 2008 (I sold the flat that year). This included all the items that Retirement Security say they provide on their web site. The addition of 1 1/2 hours of cleaning should be about £21 per week so £100 per week appears to be on the high side. I can understand that there is no reduction because insurance and maintenance has to continue regardless.

They also say on their website that the service charge is not paid to them but to an "Owners Company" whose shareholders are the owners of the flats and elect the board of directors who determine the service charge. A similar arrangement existed for the block where my flat was.

Ask the "Owners Company" how they've calculated the current rate, on who's advice and who is managing.

If, as they say, they are also paying water rates etc for the flat then perhaps it is not too bad. However: The blurb on their web site says that utilities are the responsibility of the flat owner. Check on that and if flat owner is responsible then tell the utilities that no one is in the flat. I made the mistake of not informing utilities that the flat was empty and ended up having to pay.

Bovis Homes could be the original land owners and therefore ground rent is payable to them, possibly included in the service charge. Or did Retirement Security purchase from Bovis and now hold a share of the equity in some of the flats as well as receiving ground rent? I can't see how Retirement Security have and income if they operate as described in their web page.

The low valuation of the flat that was sold was possibly because of the way it was sold, if it was similar to what you described. Try going to one of the local Estate Agents and see if they would value the flat and take it on their books. Take professional advice on the fairness of the clause limiting them to arranging sale, especially as they haven't really tried for 2 years. I have seen clauses where the current residents vet prospective purchasers, which seems fair if it is a flat in a retirement block but no more than that. (I live in an area with lots of retirement flats).
When sold challenge the amount of the service charge debt. This can be reclaimed equally from both owners of the flat

Just checked with a neighbour and his mother is in a retirement flat with the same facilities as your mother appeared to have had, ie staff on site, emergency pull cords etc, and he is paying £117 per month. (South Coast, high cost area)

[ZED]

Re: Can I decline ownership of a property bequeathed to me in a Will?

Done some digging in my old bank accounts and the service charge for a flat I used to own was £77 per month in 2008 (I sold the flat that year). This included all the items that Retirement Security say they provide on their web site. The addition of 1 1/2 hours of cleaning should be about £21 per week so £100 per week appears to be on the high side. I can understand that there is no reduction because insurance and maintenance has to continue regardless.

They also say on their website that the service charge is not paid to them but to an "Owners Company" whose shareholders are the owners of the flats and elect the board of directors who determine the service charge. A similar arrangement existed for the block where my flat was.

Ask the "Owners Company" how they've calculated the current rate, on who's advice and who is managing.

If, as they say, they are also paying water rates etc for the flat then perhaps it is not too bad. However: The blurb on their web site says that utilities are the responsibility of the flat owner. Check on that and if flat owner is responsible then tell the utilities that no one is in the flat. I made the mistake of not informing utilities that the flat was empty and ended up having to pay.

Bovis Homes could be the original land owners and therefore ground rent is payable to them, possibly included in the service charge. Or did Retirement Security purchase from Bovis and now hold a share of the equity in some of the flats as well as receiving ground rent? I can't see how Retirement Security have and income if they operate as described in their web page.

The low valuation of the flat that was sold was possibly because of the way it was sold, if it was similar to what you described. Try going to one of the local Estate Agents and see if they would value the flat and take it on their books. Take professional advice on the fairness of the clause limiting them to arranging sale, especially as they haven't really tried for 2 years. I have seen clauses where the current residents vet prospective purchasers, which seems fair if it is a flat in a retirement block but no more than that. (I live in an area with lots of retirement flats).
When sold challenge the amount of the service charge debt. This can be reclaimed equally from both owners of the flat

Just checked with a neighbour and his mother is in a retirement flat with the same facilities as your mother appeared to have had, ie staff on site, emergency pull cords etc, and he is paying £117 per month. (South Coast, high cost area)

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Thanks ostell ... hopefully Retirement Security will be able to tell me how to contact this “Owners Company”.
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I can confirm that the service charge is £425 per calendar month. R.S. Ltd are intending to increase this charge shortly: in fact, they may have already done it.
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The water/sewage rates are included in the service charge, but not gas & electricity. Shortly after Mum passed away, all three utility firms were informed by letter, sent ‘recorded delivery’. And what a lot of hassle I had, as a result!
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The water/sewage people (United Utilities) responded to the sad news by sending me a colossal bill for the entire block of flats ... a combined bill for all 64 properties; the ‘communal areas’; and drainage of surface water from the car park! I wrote to them and explained that they’d made a mistake as I had contacted them with regard to the charges for one flat only. Their next communication was a threat of legal action over my non-payment of the colossal bill. It was almost a year before they finally admitted their error ... and it was only after United Utilities’ error had been rectified that I discovered the water/sewage charges were actually included in the service charge for each flat.
The gas company (British Gas) had been sending estimated bills for gas consumption to the (empty) property for several years, following Mum’s admission to the nursing home in 2006. I’d repeatedly explained to BG that the flat was unoccupied; and hence no gas at all had been/was being used ... but they persistently sent estimated bills, and even began to add “costs” to the accumulated ‘debt’. After BG had been informed of Mum’s death (Jan 2011) they sent notice of court action to me, at my home address! They had the cheek to ask: "If there are any personal circumstances that you think we should be aware of - reasons why you are unable to pay this outstanding bill or why you should not have your supply disconnected - please contact us immediately." I replied by asking whether being dead was a sufficient reason. British Gas eventually conceded that no money was owed other than a small ‘standing charge’ (which they waived, as an apology for their error).
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Everything to do with this flat has been/continues to be, a nightmare!