Neighbour threatening to remove fence if we don’t pay

[Croker]

Hi,

I am currently in dispute with my neighbour regarding the fence panels that are on our boundary.

He wants to change the fence panels even though they are not in a bad condition. Originally we had agreed to go 50/50 but now he wants us to pay the full amount for the panels as he believes the fence is on our land. I have disputed that as the first fence post from the house is attached to the corner of his garage and therefore I believe it’s on his land. Also, the property information form that we got when we moved in states that the boundary feature between us and him is his responsibility. The other side states as being ours. I am trying to get the title deeds to confirm this.

The main frustrating thing though is the fact that he says he owns the fence panels/posts and gravel boards as he installed them some years ago before we moved in, but he also claims that they are on our land.

He has also basically threatened us by saying that if we do not pay for the panels he will take down the whole fence including the posts and gravel board leaving no separation or privacy between us and him. My wife reluctantly came to an agreement that we pay for the new panels and he puts them in.

Under the assumption that he is responsible for the maintenance of the boundary features Does he have the right to remove the whole fence and leave the boundary completely open or is it his responsibility to ensure that there is a fence (or other structure) between our land.

It feels he has us backed in a corner and can demand anything from us as he claims he currently owns all the parts of the fence.

We have had to agree to pay for just the panels but I cannot trust this guy one bit to do the job even after we give him the money to get the panels so I need to get something in writing as a legally binding document.

[des8]

First up obtain copies of land registry proprietorship files for both properties (£3 each @ https://www.gov.uk/search-property-i...-land-registry)

You might then discover who has responsibility for maintenance of that fence, and whether or not its maintenance is mandated.

[atticus]

Is not the very simple point that if the neighbour believes that the fence is on the OP's land then he can be told he would be trespassing and liable for damage if he does anything to it?

[des8]

Is not the very simple point that if the neighbour believes that the fence is on the OP's land then he can be told he would be trespassing and liable for damage if he does anything to it?

Does that not depend on who owns the fence?
If neighbour actually does own the fence he can't be accused of criminal damage (altho' neighbour might be trespassing if it is on OP's land without permission)

As an aside and not a reflection on Croker what is it about land boundaries and fences that causes so much ill will?

[Croker]

I would always try and go 50/50 on any work to boundary features, I believe that’s the best way forward regardless who’s responsibility it is in order to “keep the peace”. Originally when it was assumed that he was responsible for the panels I was happy to go 50/50 but now that he claims they are my responsibility he wants me to pay, this just seems a bit off.

I have downloaded the land registry files for his and read through mine but this has not shed any more light on the situation. I still need to contact my mortgage broker to try and get a copy of the title deeds but I have no idea if this will help or not.

We begrudgingly agreed to pay for the panels yesterday as we didn’t want it to get any nastier than what it’s got to now. Our neighbour said he would get a quote and give it to us for our consideration. However today he’s gone out this morning and bought them without consulting us and given us the invoice. Thankfully the cost is what he told us they would be but he’s still gone out and done the exact opposite to what he said he would do. Suffice to say I cannot bring myself to trust this guy. I want to pay him half before he starts and then half after the work is done but I’m worried this will annoy him and that he won’t do them until he’s paid in full.

he swears blind that they are our responsibility but has no legal proof unless he shows me the title deeds, just as I have no concrete proof they are his, however all the research I have done points towards them being his responsibility but I know that’s not legally binding.

[dslippy]

Atti is right. If he builds the fence on your land, as he claims, then he has no ownership of it. It is a gift. It would be trespass and probably crimina; damage to come onto your land to remove it.

On whose side are the fence posts?

Check the deeds/title. Take it step by step. Keep it friendly as much as ever possible and then again some.

[Croker]

I believe the fence posts are on his side as they start in front of the corner of his garage and go straight down the garden to the bottom corner. He says they are on my land but that makes no sense to me. His reasoning for this is to do with when our house was extended by the previous owners about 10 years ago, but I couldn’t understand what he was saying as he was being over technical and rambled on about it for about 10 minutes.

the Property Information Form that the old occupiers completed when they sold to us stated that our neighbour was responsible for the fence and that there had been no changes to boundaries in the last 20 years. So, unless they were mistaken the fence is his responsibility.

after his threat of removing the posts etc it’s not easy to be friendly to him but I’m not going to lower myself to his level, the trouble is that he’s the most stubborn person I’ve known and will not alter his opinion even though he cannot say 100% that the fence is on my land as he has not shown me the deeds so I can only assume he doesn’t have them either.

[des8]

Atti is right. If he builds the fence on your land, as he claims, then he has no ownership of it. It is a gift. It would be trespass and probably crimina; damage to come onto your land to remove it.

.

Surely that neighbour trespassed on OP's land by building a fence on it, but how does that make it a gift to OP?
He has made it clear he retained ownership of said fence (post 1: he says he owns the fence panels/posts and gravel boards as he installed them some years ago before we moved in, but he also claims that they are on our land.)

Doesn't your post imply that any trespass to a third party's land (eg parking a car on someone else's driveway) would entitle the third party to assume ownership of the trespassing artcle as being a gift

[dslippy]

He makes it part of your land by attaching it to your land. That is the difference.
You have a strong technicalcase, but as always, take care.

[Croker]

I’m almost certain the panels/posts are on his side and I contacted the previous owner who stated that the neighbour did erect everything himself so in my eyes it’s technically his property even though he states it’s on our land.

like I said, we’ve agreed to pay for the panels with him doing all the other work. He bought the panels on the Friday and they would have been delivered today, but he’s messaged us this morning to say he’d cancelled them because we hadn’t given the fence paint to him yet and he thinks there’s trust issues, even though we have tried twice to give him the paint.

[dslippy]

You mistook what I asked. I asked whether the panels were on your side of the fence posts or on his side of the fence posts.
You must also make a clear distinction beteen who has a responsibility to erect a fence and its ownership. My neighbour can have responsibility to erect a fence but that does not stop me building a fence within the boundaries (up to the edge if I wish) and that fence being both my property and my responsibility to maintain, and ho=ime still having a duty to comply with his obligation.

If the fence now erected is entirely within your boundary, then it is part of your land, and he has no ownership of it. This is a simple matter of law. It is affixed to the land and therefore part of it.

[Croker]

The panels are slotted into concrete posts so are neither one side or the other. The posts themselves are lined up against the back wall of his garage, hence why I believe they are on his land.

In order to keep the peace we agreed that we’d pay for the panels and he would put them in and also paint our side with paint we’d bought. He would do this at no extra cost to us. He went ahead and ordered the panels on Friday for Monday delivery without consulting us but it was pretty much the price we expected so we didn’t want to say anything. We tried to take the paint over to him at the weekend but he didn’t answer. On Monday he contacted us to say he had cancelled the panel order as we had not taken the paint over to him and that there were “trust issues”. We just said fine, we’ll do it ourselves in our own time and maybe get someone in to do the work. He then said he wanted to have a say in who does the work, to which we replied no as we are paying for the panels and labour so it’s our decision, not a joint one. If he wanted to go 50/50 on the job then we’d be happy for his input but not if he’s not paying a penny for it.

He then made a stupid analogy of if he paid for new windows in our house then he would want a say in who installed them. If he’s paying for them that’s fine, but in this case he’s not prepared to pay for the materials.

[atticus]

The odd thing here is that each party appears to think the fence is on the other's land. Usually each believes the fence to be on their land!

If it remains the case that the neighbour believes the fence is on the OP's land, then I remain of the view stated in post #3.

[Croker]

Atticus, I understand what you say and that is the first thing I said to him when he said the fence is on our land. However, as he is the one who erected it years ago before we moved in he is claiming ownership of the fence and says that it is his even though he claims they are on our land. I assume this is why he wants a say in who does the work even though he’s not paying for it.

Legally I’m not 100% sure where I stand there. Does this class as a gift and therefore they are now mine? Or did he come to some agreement with the previous owners to build the fence in our land but retain ownership of it? But does that mean he has stolen part of the land?

all that being said, I believe they are on his land but without the deeds no one can say for sure.

[dslippy]

This is a mess. So far, as I understand it, the mess is a few hundred pounds worth. It has however all the elements of capacity to grow into a very much bigger mess - several tens of thousands of pounds.

I do not under-estimate the hard work you are going to have to put in to get this back on an amicable footing. It will take a considerable swallowing of pride, and since you can't control him, you have to do it yourself.

It is possible that he is lining up a claim for adverse possession in the long run.
Record everything, and keep it safe and rememer where it is.