Highways mistake?

[mojo2460]

Hi, not sure who I need to talk to about this but basically keeping a very long story short I need to know the likely reason why a change occurred on the OS maps.

Attached you will find two images, one OS map from 1950's and one OS map from 1970's. (EX20 3RX) On the 1950's map you will see a dashed line that goes across the front of a (privately owned) parking space and on the later map it has changed to a diagonal dashed line that cuts across the parking space. There is nothing defining the boundary accept for the fact that the parking space is very rough ground.

Please can you tell me the most likely reason for this change to have occurred? Would this change have been documented? Are you able to tell me exactly when change occured?

Highways are taking this dashed line as their boundary so obviously in the 1950's their rights did not encroach onto the parking space but in the 1970's they do even though not maintained. I have not seen any maps for intervening years so unable to pinpoint change more accurately. Highways map is 1980's

Would OS have sanctioned change and notified Highways or vice-versa?

I have spoken to Local highways and they believe it probably is a mistake as no adoption/transfer proof available but onus on me to prove it so any help/guidance would be gratefully received

Regards
Pete Martin

[Kati]

Hi, not sure who I need to talk to about this but basically keeping a very long story short I need to know the likely reason why a change occurred on the OS maps.

Attached you will find two images, one OS map from 1950's and one OS map from 1970's. (EX20 3RX) On the 1950's map you will see a dashed line that goes across the front of a (privately owned) parking space and on the later map it has changed to a diagonal dashed line that cuts across the parking space. There is nothing defining the boundary accept for the fact that the parking space is very rough ground.

Please can you tell me the most likely reason for this change to have occurred? Would this change have been documented? Are you able to tell me exactly when change occured?

Highways are taking this dashed line as their boundary so obviously in the 1950's their rights did not encroach onto the parking space but in the 1970's they do even though not maintained. I have not seen any maps for intervening years so unable to pinpoint change more accurately. Highways map is 1980's

Would OS have sanctioned change and notified Highways or vice-versa?

I have spoken to Local highways and they believe it probably is a mistake as no adoption/transfer proof available but onus on me to prove it so any help/guidance would be gratefully received

Regards
Pete Martin

you might be able to find a closer date to the change on here - https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/# - it would narrow down your search a bit xx

[des8]

I think you need to realise that the features shown on ordnance survey maps only reflect boundaries & features on the ground/
They do not necessarily bear any relationship to legal boundaries

Have you an interest in the land which is now shown as part of the highway?
Is the highway authority claiming it as part of the highway?
How long have the public had uninterrupted access to pass across this land?
Is it registered land?
How is it shown on the definitive map?



Ultimately the exact position of a boundary, if disputed, can be determined only by the court or the Land Registration division of the Property Chamber, First-tier Tribunal.

[mojo2460]

Hi, thanks for reply Des8. Yes I understand that OS only reflect boundaries on the ground which is why the diagonal dashed line makes no sense at all as it just cuts across the parking space.
Yes the neighbour actually owns the land and we have stated on deeds a right of way for access and to park outside of the garage which we own. These rights of way were first granted in early 1960's

As you will see from the 3rd pic on first post Highways claim to have the rights where our parking space is.
Being beside the public highway the public could walk onto the land at any time as they can many parking spaces but we know that for at least 50yrs there has been a sign saying "private land no parking"

The Definitive map shows basically the same as the 1980's Highways map above

The land is registered. I am attaching Title Deed plans for our neighbours (jubilee Cottage) which was done in approx 2006 and ours (Fern Villa) which was done 1990

[des8]

Has the highway authority actually taken possession of this piece of land e.g. tarmacked it, or are they saying you can't park on it.
Whilst the land registry title plans are only ever considered approximate, and I suppose the register only refers to "that parcel of land" and gives no dimensions, have you shown them to highways?
If they won't agree I think you might have to apply for a determined boundary (https://www.gov.uk/your-property-bou...ary-determined) which seems a bit daft as it seems very reasonable from the details provided that there has just been a cartographers slip with the pen.

[mojo2460]

You can see what a farce this is!! owner is still the neighbour but Highways say they now have rights over it which supersede any other rights.
Now waiting to hear back from County Councillor, Freedom of information Office and OS maps. Never been maintained by council. Of course nobody else can park there as they would be blocking us from entering highway but we have lost one buyer over it with 2 days to go to exchange and so want to get it sorted

[Amethyst]

Who uses the car port opposite the entrance to the garage ? The angled highways bit would cut off their entry to the car port too.

Also, the plans you posted up seem to have the street name wrong except for on one. And the one coloured in Red for Jubilee has two dotted lines one straight across along the road line, and one diagonal into the entrance of the garage ( wondering if the red line obliterated the dotted line when it was transcribed to other plans after ) ( long shot that I know)

[mojo2460]

Hi Amethyst, thanks for adding better pics. Mine was from estate agents!. The carport opposite is used by the tennants of Jubilee cottage. As I said in first post I wanted to keep story as short as possible but Jubilee Cottage owns that car port and all the parking space between that and our garage (which we own. Street changed name from Fore St to Duck Lane approx 1990. Yes we were wondering if that dashed line was actually originally showing our right of way into garage and somehow ended up on OS and then Highways map but been told that OS never shows private rights of way but just cannot understand how else a diagonal line came about. . I have asked OS about this and just had their reply --

""We do not hold historic changes unless it was in the last 5 to 10 years so there would be no way to see why it changed or when. I have passed this to the technical team to check and see if the mapping is correct or needs changing. As soon as they get back to me I will let you know.""

Yes the plan with one line across and one diagonal confuses even more!!
Thanks again

[Amethyst]

Yeah I know, I just google image searched it to find address lol. I wondered if they were maybe after access to the church from that side, but can see that's entirely impractical due to the height change. So it really does just look like a mistake rather than anything dodgy.
Do you park inside the garage as you have access rights over the land only I think ? Did you get the report from the prospective buyers conveyancer btw to see exact reasons why it was thought to be an issue ?

I think you're in the hands of OS and highways for now.
But Des is the expert in these things, I'm just nosey

[mojo2460]

County Councillor has just told us this afternoon that County Solicitor is looking into it. It was buyers solicitor that spotted the situation even though at least 2 solicitors/conveyancers have seen it before and didn't mention it! Unfortunately I think our buyer was having a bit of a breakdown anyway and then conveyancer told her the the problem was now that "anyone can park there" which of course they cant without blocking us in but in scared her off though she is still showing interest if we can get it sorted.

Yes the garage is ours so do do always park in it.

[des8]

Even if you have the boundary determined, it won't necessarily stop the highway authority claiming public access rights over that piece of ground.
In support of the owner is that notice warning that it is private property.
It would be persuasive at the very least if you can demonstrate it has been in position for 50 years plus without opposition.
Does the land registry of the two properties involved contain details of your easement over the land?
If it does, and perhaps it is on old deeds, it would be a further indication that there is no public right of access.
This is because if there was public right of access you would not need a private easement to access your garage!

Probably best to wait to see if Highway Authority sees sense before trying to progress this further

[mojo2460]

Hi Des, thanks for reply. I have certainly learnt over last few weeks what power Highways have and that basically as we were told Title deeds are irrelevant if Highways have rights over land. Yes there is sign in the space saying "Private No Parking" which has been there for 20yrs and replaced the one before that said the same. If you look at the last photo you can see it in the middle of the back wall. Yes on old deeds it is all very clear about the right of way for access to our garage and one parking space outside of garage. As stated before this right of way was granted firstly in the early 1960's so we are wondering if it is possible to grant rights without consultation with Highways..ie. does this prove that land could not have been under Highways rights at this time if private rights were granted on it?
Thanks again

[des8]

The Highways Act 1980 Section 31 is worth a read https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1980/66/section/31

Sec31 (3) provides that where the owner of the land has erected ‘in such a manner as to be visible by persons using the way a notice inconsistent with the dedication of the way as a highway’ and ‘has maintained the notice after the 1^st January 1934, or any later date on which it was erected’ then ‘the notice, in the absence of proof of a contrary intention, is sufficient evidence to negative the intention to dedicate the way as a highway.’

Get the proof of the notice's existence!

[Amethyst]

So basically need a photo of that area showing the sign in place from around 1987 ?

[mojo2460]

I guess it depends whether they claim they have it by adoption or dedication. Unfortunately its one of those things very difficult to prove. Who takes photos of a parking space!!. we bought house 27yrs ago. I doubt estate agents would still have pics!! All land charges will say is "area became highway maintainable at public expense pre 1974 when the urban/rural district councils were the Highway Authority. They handed their records over to the County Council when DCC became the Highway Authority in 1974".