Planning Permission for windows

**wales01man** · 2nd January 2018, 17:24:PM

Re: Planning Permission for windows

If they are not per plan the neighbour could win and the council order a change. I once removed a loft conversion for someone whos neighbour objected and the council agreed with it not being correct to planning

**Amethyst** · 2nd January 2018, 17:34:PM

Re: Planning Permission for windows

I think installing frosted glass will be far cheaper than lowering the windows and sounds like a good compromise. Could you frost the top half of the windows that actually overlooks the other property - so the part that is over the height of the agreed windows ? ( depends where the openers are as I don't think film would suffice it would actually need to be a frosted glass panel ) How many inches higher are we talking about ? Are the neighbours happy with the frosted glass proposal the council have put forward ?

Slightly irrelevant but coincidentally we currently have a house being built on land beyond the end of our garden, and they managed to get a window on the gable end ground floor facing directly into my kitchen and daughters bedroom ( it's on a higher level than our house ) and although they are putting a fence in which means only the top half of the window will be visible from our house - it's not that I'm worried about - it's the loss of privacy in our rooms/garden, as they have a direct line of sight particularly in the winter when the shrubs are bare .... anyway they have installed frosted glass after a little negotiation ( as the window wasn't on their original passed plans at all and it would have cost them a fortune to move/remove it as it would mean a reconfiguration of their ground floor layout as well to avoid a windowless room )

You probably need to have a word with your architect as well about the error.

**Abbie** · 2nd January 2018, 17:53:PM

Re: Planning Permission for windows

[MENTION=6]Amethyst[/MENTION]

Many thanks for your response. I assume that the neighbours would be happy with the frosted glass option and the council pretty much said they would approve it if I submit an amendment. I am going to ring them again to tomorrow to suggest frosting the upper part of the window as it currently is and see if that would be acceptable, so it is as if the window has been dropped if you know what I mean....
The windows are 1.45m from ground level when according to the approved plans they should be 1.15m. They are 1.15m from the floor level internally and the damp proof course externally. That 30cm makes no difference to the privacy for the neighbours as the 30cm above is dead space, they would still be able to see me etc if they were lowered to 1.15m.

I have emailed the architect to ask him for clarification on what he thought he had submitted as I am beyond fuming about the error. Had I known previously I never would have allowed them to be put through at that height because it wouldn't work with the kitchen plans. It is blatantly obvious that the windows would be lower than the cupboards and sink. As it is the kitchen was meant to be fitted in 10 days time and now I will have to wait at least another 8 weeks if I have to put an amendment in plus deal with the associated costs and also potentially the cost of another window with frosted glass instead.

**Amethyst** · 2nd January 2018, 18:19:PM

Re: Planning Permission for windows

I wouldn't argue that the 30 cm is dead space ( by which presumably you mean it's above head height so you can't see out and into their study anyway ? ) or you might find you have to reduce the height of your windows by that 30cm ( as lowering them entirely isn't an option ) whereas you could change the config of your windows so the openers are horizontal 30cm from top and frosted glass ? Depends on the height generally though if the cross bar would be directly in your eyeline when standing at kitchen counter etc ( which would irritate me to hell )

I'm guessing you mean the windows start 1.15 from the floor level inside, and 1.45 from the damp proof course, whereas they should be ( planning ) 1.15 from damp course... rather than the 1.45 from damp course it should have been.

I'm not sure if you can hold the architect liable for the error - and the costs of the solution - when going back and forth with the planning office was the height of the windows mentioned - was it your architect that dealt with that ? and did your builders work off the same plans (then have to adjust for the windows? )

Planning isn't my area at all, just wanted to reply because we've just been on the other side of a badly placed window...

tagging [MENTION=39710]des8[/MENTION] [MENTION=39331]ostell[/MENTION]

**Abbie** · 2nd January 2018, 18:55:PM

Re: Planning Permission for windows

The windows are 1.15m from the DPC and 1.45m from ground level externally and 1.15m high internally. The council are maintaining that the height externally should be 1.15 from ground level. That's a good idea about horizontal openers and having them frosted, I shall also suggest that. The council said that I would need fanlight openers if it is frosted glass anyway rather than a larger opening.

At the point of submitting the planning application and it's subsequent approval the height of the windows was never mentioned at all and yes, the architect dealt with all of that. The same neighbours were the only ones that made any complaints at the time but the council did not uphold any of them.

The builders worked off the drawings and according to them they feel that they have been placed correctly and I can understand that by looking at the drawings too. Something has clearly gone wrong somewhere, whether the architect got the scale wrong, misunderstood the measurements as being from the DPC or ground level.

**des8** · 2nd January 2018, 19:19:PM

Re: Planning Permission for windows

I think [MENTION=6]Amethyst[/MENTION] has proposed the best possible way forward to reach an acceptable outcome.
However I can't work out who was at fault.
The architect apparently submitted plans showing the measurement from DPC level and planners passed them.
The builder built according to plan.
Now it appears the windows are too high?

Presumably the council are saying that the windows do not comply with building regulations.
Normally enforcement of the regs is done by application of sec36 of the 1984 Building Act.
However the local authority cannot take enforcement action under sec 36 if the works are in accordance with the full plan application which the local authority have approved or failed to reject

**ostell** · 2nd January 2018, 22:14:PM

Re: Planning Permission for windows

My sister had this sort of problem with a neighbour when she installed a conservatory. The council permitted patterned frosted glass and to be honest the affect is not apparent. THere's different rating for the opacity of the glass. See what grade the council would find acceptable.

**Abbie** · 4th January 2018, 17:16:PM

Re: Planning Permission for windows

Well, the plot thickens on this one. It turns out after speaking to the architect and him in turn speaking to the planning department, that in fact the windows are at the correct height as per the approved plans. Planning are saying that they will uphold the neighbours complaint and have said that I have to submit a minor amendment to change the windows to frosted glass at an opacity that they will approve. This neighbour complained about these windows at the point of submission for planning approval and the council rejected their complaint then. How can it be the case that they can now uphold the complaint after planning approval? In essence I will have to amend the windows on my property to my neighbours approval when in fact they are as per the approved plans. Also, where one window is situated (in what will be the utility room) it has not even moved from what was an existing pair of patio doors and is now obviously a smaller window so in fact their privacy is less invaded on that basis yet planning are saying that I will have to have that one frosted glass as well. Why is this? All this is an additional cost to me for something that was approved and has been built correctly and as per the plans after all. Building regs are happy with all of it too. I cannot get my head around the ludicrousness of the situation.
They have also told me that I can only have fanlight openings on the windows which actually I am not bothered about really. What is really bothering me is why oh why did they approve the plans (after said neighbour) initially complained and then change the goalposts at the 11th hour? How is that even allowed?

Many thanks

- - - Updated - - -

Originally posted by des8 View Post

I think @Amethyst has proposed the best possible way forward to reach an acceptable outcome.
However I can't work out who was at fault.
The architect apparently submitted plans showing the measurement from DPC level and planners passed them.
The builder built according to plan.
Now it appears the windows are too high?

Presumably the council are saying that the windows do not comply with building regulations.
Normally enforcement of the regs is done by application of sec36 of the 1984 Building Act.
However the local authority cannot take enforcement action under sec 36 if the works are in accordance with the full plan application which the local authority have approved or failed to reject

[MENTION=39710]des8[/MENTION]

It turns out the windows have in fact been sited and installed as per the plans. Please see thread #9. It seems to me the council are at fault. I feel someone needs to be held accountable for this. It isn't me, the architect or the builders.....

Many thanks

**des8** · 4th January 2018, 18:55:PM

Re: Planning Permission for windows

Don't worry about what the council are now saying.
Write (signed for) to the planning department (copy in the CEO and your local councillor) and ask them 1) what building regulations you are contravening as the building has been erected in accordance with approved plans and 2)under what legislation (act or regulation and exact section) do they intend to force you to comply with the required changes as you have built according to the plans they passed.

It is important that all correspondence is now in writing, so request a written response.

Depending on their response you could probably (if they were to try and enforce through the courts) get them to pay for the alterations (Building Act 1984 sec36 (6) https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/55
To use that section though they have to show you are in contravention of building regulations

**Abbie** · 4th January 2018, 19:02:PM

Re: Planning Permission for windows

[MENTION=39710]des8[/MENTION]

Thank you for that. I thought it may well have got to the written stage!! I am so mad! We are definitely not in breach of any building regulations whatsoever, everything has been carried out to the letter. I also just read something very interesting on a planning portal website which says:

In England and Wales it is not possible for a third party to appeal against a local planning authority's decision.
For example, if your neighbour was granted permission to build an extension you could not appeal against it, even if you objected to the application at an earlier stage of the process.

This is exactly what my neighbours have done but it seems from this that they can't....?

**Abbie** · 4th January 2018, 19:08:PM

Re: Planning Permission for windows

Originally posted by ostell View Post

My sister had this sort of problem with a neighbour when she installed a conservatory. The council permitted patterned frosted glass and to be honest the affect is not apparent. THere's different rating for the opacity of the glass. See what grade the council would find acceptable.

[MENTION=39331]ostell[/MENTION]

It may be the case that I will have to submit a minor amendment but I am loathed to at the moment as I don't believe I am in the wrong on this one and the council know it. It seems to me that this is coming from enforcement rather than planning. Also according to literature I have read recently the neighbours cannot complain after the plans have been passed and approved, yet the council have listened to them!!
This will cost me time and money to sort out when a simple trellis or hedge would suffice but the neighbour is so unhelpful and just won't budge!!

**des8** · 4th January 2018, 19:15:PM

Re: Planning Permission for windows

Don't give way, don't get mad..... keep calm and make them dot all the "i"s and cross all the "t"s IN WRITING.

You are correct, once planning is granted no third party can appeal the decision. The third party would need to apply for a judicial review challenging the lawfulness of the decision.

**Abbie** · 6th February 2018, 12:21:PM

Originally posted by des8 View Post

Re: Planning Permission for windows

Don't give way, don't get mad..... keep calm and make them dot all the "i"s and cross all the "t"s IN WRITING.

You are correct, once planning is granted no third party can appeal the decision. The third party would need to apply for a judicial review challenging the lawfulness of the decision.

Hi there,

I wrote a letter to the council asking them to explain and clarify exactly what I have done incorrectly and what act etc I have breached. I tried to scan a copy of the letter here but the blacked out names still showed through so I have typed the response from them below. It is worth noting also that I addressed it to the Chief Planning Officer and copied in my local councillor and the CEO of the council. The response did not come from any of them but from a "Development Manager":

Dear Abbie

I have summarised your principal concerns regarding our proposed enforcement action below and will comment on them in turn:

1. Incorrect information provided that the windows have not been built in accordance with the plans approved under reference .......

The height of the window has been measured both by Planning Enforcement Officer (insert name) and Planning Officer (insert name). The two new side windows show a discrepancy of measurements from the plans approved. When measuring from the ground floor level the two ground floor windows measure 1.15m yet they have been installed 1.45m from ground level.

The planning officer has suggested that one option is to submit a minor material amendment application. In considering this application he suggested that obscure glazing be installed at the bottom of these two windows below 1.7m measure internally from the floor. Further we advised that it would then be possible to have an opening fan light above this 1.7m measurement.

2. The legislation stating the reasons to enforce this matter.

The government provides guidance on enforcement in its National Planning Policy Framework, which says in paragraph 207 that "Effective enforcement is important as a means of maintaining public confidence in the planning system. Enforcement action is discretionary, and local planning authorities should act proportionately in responding to suspected breaches of planning control."

We assess each enforcement case on its own merits so we take formal enforcement action where it is expedient and proportionate. We feel this is expedient to take enforcement action as the windows installed may cause a loss of privacy to the neighbouring property.

In conclusion I can confirm that the windows have not been built in accordance with the approved plans and feel it is necessary to continue the enforcement process. Please be advised that a minor material amendment application will need to be submitted within 28 days of this letter. The alternative would be to build in accordance with the plans approved.

I hope this clarifies your queries raised in your complaint.

Your sincerely

insert name.

This is basically the letter but I have excluded names etc for obvious reasons. I have 2 big issues with this. One is that as far as I am concerned the windows have been installed as per the plans approved and at the correct height. It is my understanding that plans are submitted for windows etc from finished floor height (internally) and they are spot on. Is this correct as this is what the architect who submitted the plans believes and also the builders that put them in? If this is correct then I am still not breaching anything surely? The council came round and measured from the ground floor level (below the DPC) externally and have never measured internally.
Secondly, one of the windows was previously patio doors and is now in a utility room with exactly the same outlook as previously but obviously less light in the room and I am loathed to change that one at all! I cannot see into my neighbours property or garden etc from there and it is also in a room that won't be "lived in" as such.

In addition I do not understand the inconsistency of telling me they are wrong externally but specifying how I need to correct internally! I feel as if I may as well have submitted planning for an entire glass wall along the side of the property and then waited for them to come round after it was installed and told me to amend it!!

It seems to me as if I am being made a scapegoat for someone's initial mistake at the planning office. I might add that I have also put blinds up in both those rooms too and have previously tried to appease the neighbour that complained by suggesting I put a higher fence up (it is my boundary) or trellis etc, to which she point blank refused.
Is there anything I can do from here on at all? I don't mind so much obscuring the kitchen window at all as I really don't want to see my neighbour either but that will be through gritted teeth as there is a blind there and from the existing plans it has been moved 10cm to the right.
Should I just submit the minor amendment and forget about it even though this is also at a cost to myself when I don't believe I have breached anything at all?
My apologies for the long post! I have the bit between my teeth now and have not found the council helpful at all. It has really annoyed me that they have taken the neighbours complaint anyway as that should not be allowed as mentioned previously.

All advice welcome. Thank you so much for your time.

Abbie

**des8** · 6th February 2018, 17:27:PM

" technically they have been installed too high according to the approved plans"
" . I think that the architect that submitted the plans put them in as a measurement from the Damp Proof Course level and not ground level which never got picked up by the planners."
"The windows are 1.45m from ground level when according to the approved plans they should be 1.15m. They are 1.15m from the floor level internally and the damp proof course externally".
"The windows are 1.15m from the DPC and 1.45m from ground level externally and 1.15m high internally. The council are maintaining that the height externally should be 1.15 from ground level."

The above quotes come from your various posts.
What do the plans actually state? Are the various measurements contradictory?
If you are sure your building complies with the plans, you could continue your dispute and force the council to take enforcement action which you then dispute.
It will come down to what the plans state or suggest about window height from DPC and ground level.
(I'm not sure how they can be 1.15 from DPC and internal floor level, but I'm not a builder! )

I note the council haven't actually said what legislation they will use to carry out enforcement.
The framework to which they refer only sets out government policy and advice.
So you could go back and ask them to rectify their omission (again copy in CEO and local councillor)

On the other hand to avoid the stress and possible court costs .........
it depends how set you are on

Slightly tongue in cheek: you could raise ground level to DPC and insert another DPC higher up. Expensive perhaps, but it would P*** them all off

Planning Permission for windows

Planning Permission for windows

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