Police searches

[samantha5]

Hello, i just joined and I have a bit of an issue with a police search warrant and was hoping someone could help. We had our house searched and i was wondering if it was a completely legal search-I'm not trying to blame the police, I just can't find much info on the particulars of searches that involve people not suspected of a crime. Not knowing much about police procedures, I just need to be clearer on the facts as our whole house was searched-even though no one in our house was suspected of a crime.

Basically, we rented out a small outhouse on our land to a friend of my brothers. I didn't really know him at all and had barely spoken to him, he was just known to my brother and had never been in our house. The police woke me up with a knock on my bedroom door ( they were already in the house- had been let in by my mother) and said "it's the police, don't worry you've not done anything wrong". I went out my bedroom and a police woman asked if she could frisk me-without thinking i just said "yes" as i had just woken up and did whatever the police said.

To start with we thought it was my brother (who wasn't there at the time) who was in trouble but then found out it was his friend (who also wasn't on our property at the time). We still have absolutely no idea what it was all about, other than they were searching for stolen goods and documents. I have no clue if he was guilty or not, but it was absolutely nothing to do with us. Basically just a bunch of innocent people who had no idea what was going on were left to deal with the police in their home whilst the 2 people who might've known, weren't there.

The police searched our house for 3 hours and found nothing of course. We were very compliant. The only thing I objected to was that they seemed to be focusing on my fathers gun license more than what they were actually there for. (my father was dying of cancer at the time, I won't go into it all but suffice to say it was very upsetting being questioned about his guns which wasn't what they were there for.) whilst he was in the other room very ill.

I just wanted to know if the search was properly carried out. I am not wishing to offend anyone, (I know that questions about law and the police can be a touchy subject) it was just a very traumatic experience and I wanted to get more insight into why the search was carried out. Of course our whole privacy was violated and we had nothing to do with a crime. They apparently searched this mans house too so I would've thought that would be enough without searching ours. I am also kicking myself about how I let them treat us (agreeing to a frisk search-no big deal usually, but when it's in your own house you are made to feel like a criminal, even though she'd just said i hadn't done anything wrong-so why the frisk?!) Of course the police have the element of surprise and you just do whatever they tell you to. If the police acted properly, then fair enough. I am just quite angry and upset having never broken the law in my life to be treated like a criminal in my own home. Also was very upset for my elderly parents too of course.

Sorry for the long post, thank you.

[wales01man]

Re: Police searches

You should ask about this at the Police station where the officers came from they probably were within the law but the should set your mind at rest.
As for the shotgun if they suspected a criminal may have access to it they must question it makes sense /
Hope your fathers OK

[nemesis45]

Re: Police searches

Good morning,

Were yo shown/given a copy of the search warrant?
Was this a magistrates warrant or one signed by a
senior police officer?
Did the officers search the " outhouse"?

nem

[des8]

Re: Police searches

Your post raises a couple of concerns:
1) you had just woken up..... They should only enter the property at a reasonable hour.(PaCE 1984 Sec 16 (4)
2) this was a search for stolen goods......they can only search for evidence regarding that offence, so why the interrogation over licenced guns? (PaCE 1984 sec 16 (8)
And did they show you and leave a copy of the warrant, as well as showing you his/her warrant card? (both required under PaCE)

[wales01man]

Re: Police searches

Sorry des but I aggree with the police checking the gun guns are rather dangerous an the OP needs to contact the senior officer at the police station to d must always be checked to make sure pace was adhered to

[samantha5]

Re: Police searches

Thank you for the replies. The shotgun was locked up safe, no one else had access to it, the issue I think was that my father was the only one who had a licence and he was dying and I suppose the officer was asking why he still had it. We hadn't even thought about his licence, he only went shooting a couple of times a year anyway and if we had asked him to give his licence and guns up he would've been devastated (would've been like accepting he was going to die which we hadn't even really talked about), we hadn't even had the discussion or thought about it. I was very offended and upset by this officer, I thought it very insensitive in my fathers house. My father died shortly after the search which makes it even more upsetting. I have read that the cops like to ask a lot of questions, completely unprepared we just answered them. I think they even asked why my mother had a temporary bed set up downstairs (was in case my dad needed anything who was unable to get upstairs).

The main officer carrying out the search seemed to do everything by the book and was pretty nice about it, he never mentioned the gun licence at all, it was another officer.

des-it was around 7:30a.m they showed up which I gather is reasonable, but I was still asleep.

Nem-it was a magistrates warrant. We were given a copy yes. They searched the outhouse as well as everything else, all rooms, drawers, vehicles. My issue is that we only rented out the space to this man, had no idea he was doing anything criminal in it (still not sure if he was or not). it seems unfair to me to have my personal belongings invaded, along with the rest of my family. It was pretty upsetting. I guess if it's what the police do, and it happens to a lot of law-abiding people, then it's ok, I don't personally know anyone it has happened to. I just never in a million years expected to have my house raided by police.

[samantha5]

Re: Police searches

Just to add-this happened a few weeks ago. We never did anything at the time as they had a warrant so thought there was nothing we could do, which is probably the case. But the more I think about it the more angry and upset I get so I just wanted to ask and get things clear about why this search was carried out and if it's the norm to do this sort of search, even when the police don't actually suspect anyone in the house. I am pretty naive about police procedures but if told it's what the police need to do then I accept that. Thanks.

[des8]

Re: Police searches

When an innocent is confronted by the police they often find police action and procedures heavy handed.
Hence the stereo typing of police officers.
From a copper's point of view though, they are never sure what to expect.

Some years ago we had an unexpected visit from six officers at 2.30am.
Woken up by a hammering on the door, blue lights flashing through bedroom windows.
Dogs doing their nuts .
Eventually opened the door, and was told that earlier in the evening there had been a fight in the village, and one of my sons was suspected of being involved and they wanted to come in and check.
I told them he had been in all evening.
They then saw the four dogs lined up, and asked if my son James was in could he come to the door.
We obliged, they saw he had no marks of a fight on him and prepared to leave.
By this time I had come to my senses and asked i)why they suspected my son's involvement.
"One of the officer's THOUGHT he recognised him from the description given by a witness ii) why did they hammer on the door and not use the bell push?No response iii) why did they need six officers, two cars with flashing blue lights at 2.30 am? no response
iv) did they not realise that by announcing their arrival so spectacularly that if my son had been involved he would have been out the back door and down the woods before they got through the front door.
Police retired without even an apology.

I was going to leave it at that until the neighbours started asking what the problem had been. They had woken four households because an officer thought he recognised a description of a participant in a minor fracas.
A complaint went into the station, not for compensation. but suggesting they think before they react.
Got an apology, as did the four disturbed neighbours!!

[samantha5]

Re: Police searches

I'm glad you got an apology Des. The problem with us is that we have always been incredibly compliant and polite and never made complaints.I don't think it was until they'd gone that I actually went "hang on, I haven't done anything wrong!" I always think of what to say after. I know that wouldn't make any difference to the police, but I could at least have let them know how upset I was and ask them why this was happening like you did.

I was wary of asking this question on here because some people I know have been really sympathetic and others have basically said "get over it" or "you'd complain if the police didn't investigate a crime for you" or "why can't you accept the police did their job"-I don't however think it completely unreasonable to be upset about this! Especially for my elderly parents. The irony is, if I had actually committed a crime I would not be half as upset as I would have deserved this, but none of us had done anything or knew what any of it was about at all. So 3 hours wasted, family upset in their own home, treated like criminals, all privacy violated, all for nothing, and throw in a couple of comments about my dad being too ill to have a gun and yes, think that's something to be upset about. Waste of time for police too.

I will be a lot more assertive if this ever happens again. Thank you for the replies, I will put a complaint in, I would like a proper apology and explanation. I don't think they realise the effect they have when they do something like this, because it's nothing to them, or maybe they just think we're all criminals and deserve it.

[wales01man]

Re: Police searches

Have you contacted the senior officer at the station? an explanation and apology should be forthcoming as stated a police officers enters the unknown when entering somewhere its difficult no doubt to be calm and collected all this is bound to up most decent people.

Glad to read you are not after compo just and apology go get one that's the least you should get

[des8]

Re: Police searches

I fully understand your feelings.
The police had a warrant to search for stolen goods and documents.
Your "frisking" (after obtaining your permission) would be in line with procedures to ensure officers safety.
However the warrant does not give them authority to question the appropriateness of a person to hold a shotgun licence and the guns
(on seeing the guns they can request sight of the licence)
They should not question you with a view to obtaining evidence unless they have first cautioned you.
So why all the questions and why were they asking about sleeping arrangements? Were they just being sociable?

Having said all that I have a number of acquaintances, and also a nephew, who are police officers, and I can sympathise with them.
So often those they are investigating are less than cooperative, that they as a precaution assume everyone is like that.
Wrong, but it is life.

[samantha5]

Re: Police searches

Thank you for the kind replies, I really appreciate them.

wales-I am trying to get my mother to agree to making a complaint. She kind of just wants to forget it and won't get behind me on this. I am trying to convince her this is the right thing to do to get an explanation.

They were very careful not to cause any damage and since they had a warrant I always thought well, no way I can make a complaint. But the more I think about it, I think what was it all about? Surely we deserve an explanation. I did ask at the time what this person was supposed to have done but of course they were not allowed to tell me.

I was really insulted to be frisked in my own home. I get what you are saying Des, but I just can't get over being frisked in my own home! It's the ultimate insult. I wonder what she would've done if I had refused. I understand if we are talking about the person under suspicion being frisked (which wasn't anyone in my house), but I wasn't, as far as they knew I was just a person who happened to live in the house who had nothing to do with any crime. I think I was the only person who was frisked because it was one officer who woke me up whilst everyone else was downstairs. I don't know how likely it is for your average 23yr old woman to have weapons in her bedroom and be armed and dangerous?! it is hard to see their side of things when it's happening in your own house and you are just minding your own business and never done a thing wrong in your life. I mean where are you safe and where do you have privacy if not in your own home?

They might've been being sociable about the sleeping arrangements-although they probably wanted to know what was going on with my dad, ie would they be able to talk to him since he was the owner of the house and was clearly very ill. They had to search the room he was in, thankfully this was very quick as the room contained very little, and my dad slept through it and didn't even know they were there (thank goodness). But again, very upsetting.

With regard to the guns, it most definitely wasn't a sociable thing, it was more like questioning. He said something like "should you still have guns in the house, as what are you going to do with them?" After being in the room my dad was in and seeing him. I was so upset by this, I made a comment back and then was argued with about it. At which point my mother was forced to defend us saying that he'd only been bedridden the last week but that yes we probably should've done something about the guns-what the hell, agreeing with this arrogant heartless officer and making it seem like what he said was ok! I wish i had taken his name. You just don't think at the time.

Trouble is, we have a lot of land and spare buildings, so we sometimes let people rent them. Seems like a reasonable enough thing to do? Is this likely to happen again?

Thanks again for listening to my saga and being understanding and helpful about it, much appreciated.

[des8]

Re: Police searches

May I suggest as a preliminary you don't "complain" but rather ask for an "explanation" about the points which concern you?

[samantha5]

Re: Police searches

Yes Des, if they are allowed to tell me, but I have a feeling they will say they can't reveal anything, or that they had "reasonable suspicion", which covers everything. But I will give it a try, thank you.