Legality of Penalty Fares ... It's Too Easy to Get Fined on the Tram!

[martinRPS]

You invited me back so here I am. Happy birthday

I'd appreciate any thoughts your community might have on this:


Our local tram service enforces a "buy ticket before boarding" system. They do not sell tickets on the tram itself. Yet they have spot checks, and those without tickets are issued a penalty fare of £50.

To my knowledge, all other public transport systems have some form of ticket checking as you board.

For example, turnstiles (underground), ticket checks (buses and trains), or you pay the driver as you board (buses). The tram has none. There is a relatively small notice on the back of the tram stop warning passengers to buy a ticket before boarding. It's very easy to miss. (Especially if you were new to the city. Even more so if you were a foreign student or tourist. What if you were blind?! )

My friends have said that in such a circumstance the spot check staff would use their discretion and choose not to enforce the fine. However... to me it seems unjust that you would have to rely on their discretion for this.

If they are going to maintain the right to fine passengers without a ticket, surely there should be big, clear, eye catching signs drawing your attention to this as you board the tram - for example on the doors / windows of the tram itself.

Ultimately, it seems much too easy to get on without a ticket and be subjected to their daft penalties. Surely if it's so easy to board without one, it's reasonable to presume you could buy a ticket on board?

[wales01man]

Re: Legality of Penalty Fares ... It's Too Easy to Get Fined on the Tram!

Have you been given one of these Fines?

[martinRPS]

Re: Legality of Penalty Fares ... It's Too Easy to Get Fined on the Tram!

Personally, no. Some friends have before. One paid. One argued and got 'let off'. It just winds me up and seems so unfair.

[Amethyst]

Re: Legality of Penalty Fares ... It's Too Easy to Get Fined on the Tram!

Where do you get tickets from - are they at machines at all the tram stops? And how much are the tickets ? Is it a pay per journey, or like the Oyster / Mango type card system ?

But then, my local train station isn't manned a lot and there's no requirement to show anyone any ticket till the inspector comes round while you're seated. He does though let you pay there and then.

I completely understand the issue - visiting Nottingham I've not been on the Trams as I wasn't sure how they worked - I'd have probably got on and expected to pay on board and yes that's down to me being a bit of a scaredy cat and not used to trams, and complete lack of information and signage about how to use the damn things. They should allow people to pay on board surely ? And who collects the charge, is it a council run or private service?

If the instruction and signage isn't clear then I'd reckon it would be arguable similarly to car park charges where signage is lacking.

[Amethyst]

Re: Legality of Penalty Fares ... It's Too Easy to Get Fined on the Tram!

http://www.thetram.net/penalty-fares/

+ Can I appeal against the issue of a Penalty Fare Notice?

You can appeal against the issue of the Penalty Fare Notice within 22 days of the date of issue if you think you have been treated unfairly. You should give full details of the reasons why you feel you should not be liable to pay the penalty fare. Send your letter to Penalty Fares Administration, Nottingham Trams Limited, Armstrong Way, Wilkinson Street, Nottingham, NG7 7NW. Any appeals received more than 22 days later starting on the date of issue will not be considered. Details of our appeals policy will be published on the website and can be obtained from the NET Travel Information Centre.

http://www.thetram.net/fares/


Also letter in Nottingham Post from last July

http://www.nottinghampost.com/ll-use...ail/story.html

HAVING read your articles about £50 tram fines, I wanted to share my experience of being issued with a penalty fare notice with you.

I live in Derbyshire and I rarely travel into Nottingham using the tram network. At around 9.15am on Sunday, June 29, I boarded a tram at Phoenix Park with my three-year-old son. On arriving at Phoenix Park, I saw no signage informing me that I needed to purchase a ticket prior to boarding the tram, and therefore assumed that I paid on board, as I have always done in the past.

After finding a seat for myself and my son, I got out my purse ready to pay the attendant. It was while waiting to pay that I noticed a sign displayed inside the tram informing me of the new rules regarding paying for journeys. I immediately shouted a tram attendant over to ask about the payment of fares. I apologised immediately.

He said very little to me and instead went to speak to his colleagues further down the cabin. He returned shortly after and asked my son and I to vacate the tram with no explanation as to what was happening. I was then issued with a penalty fare notice.

Read more: http://www.nottinghampost.com/ll-use...#ixzz3Y3UsKmvN
Follow us: @Nottingham_Post on Twitter | NottinghamPostOnline on Facebook

That's disgusting really. And puts people off a)going into Nottingham and b)using bloody trams

http://www.nottinghampost.com/Tram-t...ail/story.html

On June 27, Mr Radford had parked up at the Hucknall tram stop and got on with a £10 note ready to pay, as he had done every other time.

He said: “As I asked for a return ticket to Nottingham an eyebrow was raised by the conductor and I was asked at the next stop to leave the tram as new policies were now in order, something which as an irregular tram user I was unaware of.

“At Bulwell station the conductor nodded to the other conductor further up the tram and I was escorted from the tram. I felt humiliated, embarrassed and shocked that they’d treat their paying customers like this.”

Mr Radford was then charged a £50 fine for not buying his ticket before boarding, which he said made him “feel like a criminal.”

Read more: http://www.nottinghampost.com/Tram-t...#ixzz3Y3VxBY3C
Follow us: @Nottingham_Post on Twitter | NottinghamPostOnline on Facebook

Seems it is quite a big issue ( sorry just rambling as not something I've looked into before)

[martinRPS]

Re: Legality of Penalty Fares ... It's Too Easy to Get Fined on the Tram!

Please ramble away! I'm curious to see what somebody knowledgeable, like yourself, makes of the system. I think there have been quite a few people upset by the policy and attitude of the company. (You can buy season tickets btw, but presumably they would be used by people who are familiar with the system. )

I have heard stories like those you mentioned. That's why, after seeing the small notice on the back of the tram stop, I thought... that's not fair, surely that can't be legal?!?!

I've seen these Strategic Rail Authority guidelines and the legality of train penalty fares on the CA website but no information / guidance on how and why it's legal to do that.

Under what authority can they make those charges? Are they legally binding? (Unbelievably it seems that they are, see quote from CAB website below). Could other companies such as cinemas and theatres also try this innovative way of collecting payment?

"Ah Sir, welcome to our theatre, there's nobody on the door but if you enter without a ticket you're subject to a £100 fine. You're also obliged, by law, to give us your name and address so that we can take you to court if you don't pay. What's wrong? You didn't see the notice? Oh, that's tough, bad luck. It's the tiny one on the back of that door there look."

CAB website makes this point with regard to train penalty notices:

If you refuse to pay the penalty on the spot the revenue protection officer will ask for your name and address so that they can continue to pursue the claim. It's a criminal offence to refuse to give these details, and the officer can call for help from the British Transport Police

[Amethyst]

Re: Legality of Penalty Fares ... It's Too Easy to Get Fined on the Tram!

I think it should be clear and fair for everyone, day trippers AND every day commuters.

The Trams are run by private companies - I'm not sure where the fine payments go, presumably to the private company.

I don't know if Trams have similar legislation to trains....- Regulations of Railways Act 1889; Railways Act 2005, the Railway Byelaws 2005 ( allowed by the Railways Act) But then trains allow you to pay on the train.

In London there is the The London Regional Transport (Penalty Fares) Act 1992 and the Greater London Authority Act 1999 which allows Transport for London to charge penalty fares on Trams and Buses.

It's only okay for trains because of the legislation IMO. The Theatre example you give would be a clear penalty and unlawful, as per the arguments in Beavis (car park penalties) and the original arguments in bank charges. Read Dunlop and Director of Fair Trading v First National Bank. Oh and OFT and Credit Card charges. Penaltys need to be proportionate and can only be a genuine preestimate of loss. I think Beavis might be of help (or hinderance) depending on the judgment in the morning (10.30ish). They are looking at if parking penalty charges are commercially justifiable.

It depends on whether trams (outside of London) have the same status as trains I guess, so that needs looking into, as I said it isn't something I have looked in to previously.

[martinRPS]

Re: Legality of Penalty Fares ... It's Too Easy to Get Fined on the Tram!

If penalty fares are going to be applied then It should be clearly stated 1. where people wait for the vehicle to arrive and 2. as they are boarding the vehicle. How can any commercial company not have the common sense to do that?

Amethyst thank you for directing me to the relevant legislation etc. I shall look into that. Even if I don't agree with the rules, it's handy to be familiar with them. The devil in me is itching to board without a ticket just for the argument....

[Lorena8]

Re: Legality of Penalty Fares ... It's Too Easy to Get Fined on the Tram!

I had a very bad experience today, so this is what happened I went to the tram machine to buy my ticket to Piccadilly but the so-called machine was out of service, so to be on the safe side I took a picture of the machine, ok guess what happened next? ticket was being checked at the next is stop, so i told the tram officer exactly what had happened, which was that the ticket machine was out of service, I also showed him the picture that I took as prove, so the bloke was ok for me to get off the tram and buy a ticket from that stop, but his colleague refused and lead me away from the ticket machine and said he just needed to take some detail off me, so I gave him my details, I was shocked when he flogged me with a fine of £100. i find his action ridiculous and very unacceptable. I will definitely make an appeal against the fine. In fact, I think they should be the one apologizing for their failed service and not their other way around. pls see the picture above!

[martinRPS]

Re: Legality of Penalty Fares ... It's Too Easy to Get Fined on the Tram!

Welcome to LB Lorena8. That sucks, I would certainly contest that. Perhaps a strongly worded letter to their managment / customer service dept in the first instance. If you don't have any joy from that, it might be worth starting a new thread on here for some proper advice.

[hotpizza87]

Did you know?

You can avoid penalty fares by giving false details and denying the existence of any IDin your possession.

Comply with the request to disembark and give details. Use a name with your initials so it's easier to think of on the spot. Change any phone number by altering the last digit by 1. Say you don't have an email address.

You will never hear from them again.

[hotpizza87]

When they ask for address, a good trick is to use your previous address and change the door number by 2 so you have the same post code as you had when you lived there.

Remain calm but appear unsettled but compliant.

[sehar]

Did you know?

You can avoid penalty fares by giving false details and denying the existence of any IDin your possession.

Comply with the request to disembark and give details. Use a name with your initials so it's easier to think of on the spot. Change any phone number by altering the last digit by 1. Say you don't have an email address.

You will never hear from them again.

hi, what if you are unable to validate your mango card and they fine you penalty, can you still this that is false name and address. Can they access your details from your mango card??, please let me know.