Car Hire company pays PCN - denial of justice?

[HaliMac]

Interesting one (well I think so anyway)..

I recently hired a car for a few days and no sooner had I signed the papers I was caught infringing a box junction by one of Tfl's cameras. I was totally unaware of this until a week after i returned the vehicle I got a charge against my credit card for £91 (£60 for the PCN and £21 + VAT) from the Hirer.

Now I happen to know that a lot of these box junction tickets have been successfully appealed in recent months and, had what I expected happened and the hirer merely informed TfL and forwarded me the ticket i would have almost certainly appealed it.

Are the Car Hire companies, having been provided with a waiver when you sign the agreement, denying you justice (and potentially unjustly enriching themselves) when they pay these tickets and slap you with an admin fee? Or are they just being pragmatic? Your views welcomed.

I've fired the below letter off to them in the meantime, so let's see what happens!

March 2008

The Company Secretary
Provincial Securities Ltd. (< --- National Car Rental)
017115 James House
Leicester
LE2 7AR

Dear Sir/Madam

Rental agreement Number: nnnnnnnn

I write with reference to the Transport for London Penalty Charge Notice, ref. no. xxnnnnn, which was incurred by myself on the 14th February 2008 whilst hiring your vehicle, a Citröen Picasso (registration no. xxnn xxx).

I was surprised to learn that, despite my providing you with adequate waiver rights, you chose to pay this penalty on my behalf and add an administration fee of £27 (invoice number nnnnn), charging my credit card without notifying me.

Your action is potentially denying me access to justice, as I would be mindful to appeal this PCN in the light of several recent successful appeals against such box-junction camera ‘detections’; and would at the very least wish to put TfL to proof by requesting sight of evidence for their claim.

Please let me have your proposal to remedy this matter within the next 14 days.
Yours faithfully

Mr. Hal I. Mac

[Tools]

Re: Car Hire company pays PCN - denial of justice?

Hi Halimac

I would definitely chase this one up. IMO as you say they are denying you the right to appeal or defend the allegation. Have they provided you with any paperwork for the offence? Is there a photograph produced for evidence that it WAS actually the said vehicle at a specific time and date.

If they are just charging your card without providing evidence who is to say this isn`t a regular sideline they have going?

Would like to see the outcome of this one

Jules

[HaliMac]

Re: Car Hire company pays PCN - denial of justice?

Hi Tools

They've forwarded me the PCN form but no evidence, photographic or otherwise. They just allude to the fact that they have the incident recorded on 'video tape or DVD'. I have chased it up with them (see copy of my letter to them above) and I'll keep you all informed

Mac

[scottishlass]

Re: Car Hire company pays PCN - denial of justice?

Good luck with this Mac

Don't really know much about these things,but don't see what they have done as fair.

[HaliMac]

Re: Car Hire company pays PCN - denial of justice?

Response from Hire company's CS dept. today:

Mr Mac

Thank you for your e-mail regarding the fine issued against the above
Rental Agreement number.

Please be advised that as we are the registered owners of the vehicles, the
fines are sent directly to ourselves. Please note that it is company
policy to then settle the fines with the local borough council immediately,
to prevent them from escalating in amount over time. This policy is
clearly stated in the Terms & Conditions of hire.

When we receive a fine, the customer is responsible for covering the
Company’s administrative costs. Due to the high volume of fines we, as a
company, receive on a daily basis, we have had to employ an entire team to
deal with these, and the costs for doing so need to be passed on to the
customer.

I have attached copies of the fine for your information with the
photographic evidence you requested.

(See attached file: xxxxxx7[1].tif) (See attached file:
xxxxxx97[2].tif)

(unclear 1-bit black & white images)

Should you wish to dispute this matter further please do not hesitate to
contact our Customer Service Department.


Yours etc.

[HaliMac]

Re: Car Hire company pays PCN - denial of justice?

I'm beginning to think that Jules has something here wrt the 'regular sideline' thought.

At the heart of this is the fact that I wasn't fined but recharged. What's necessary therefore, is to explore whether or not that recharge is unlawful.To some degree, even though it makes me mad to say it, the alleged "offence" is incidental here!

I wonder what they would say if challenged on their true costs of paying the fine on my behalf?

This is looking more and more like a penalty to me. Let's look at the finances:

• Cost of passing my details onto TfL? 1 letter posted - matter closed (for them).

• Cost of paying fine on my behalf? 1 letter, £60 disbursed and recovered -plus £27 gross profit.

"Due to the high volume of fines we, as a company, receive on a daily basis, we have had to employ an entire team to deal with these, and the costs for doing so need to be passed on to the customer."

Now where have we heard that before? :rolleyes:

[HaliMac]

Re: Car Hire company pays PCN - denial of justice?

I think is the relevant part of the regulations (and I could find no mention of this section in the subsequent amendment made in 2003):

Statutory Instrument 2001 No. 2285
The Road User Charging (Charges and Penalty Charges) (London) Regulations 2001

(6) Where at the relevant time -

(a) the registered keeper of the relevant vehicle was a vehicle-hire firm;

(b) the relevant vehicle was hired from that firm under a hiring agreement;

(c) the person hiring it signed a statement of liability acknowledging his liability for any charges or penalty charges incurred under a charging scheme during the currency of the hiring agreement,

charges and penalty charges shall be payable by the hirer of the vehicle.

However I can't recall whether such a waiver/statement of liability was part of what I signed for when I made the Hire Agreement. I guess I could retrieve a copy of the one I signed from them if I need to.

Additionally, I'm not sure how to interpret the regulation - does it mean that all or any of the conditions at a, b & c need to apply?

Worryingly, the Terms & Conditions area of their website makes no mention whatsoever of fines or PCNs.

[Tools]

Re: Car Hire company pays PCN - denial of justice?

Halimac,

I work for a transport company and if any of our drivers commit traffic offences(i.e speeding) then all we do is see who was driving that vehicle at the time of the offence and pass the summons back to the issuer with the drivers details, simple.

I cannot imagine it taking more than 10 minutes tops to check who the vehicle was hired to, enter that information onto the fixed penalty, pop it into an envelope and then return it to the issuer.As for employing a team dedicated to this, in a word, bull.

Is there any chance you can scan the fixed penalty into here(obviously editing any personal details) or email it to me Tools@LegalBeagles.info

[WendyB]

Re: Car Hire company pays PCN - denial of justice?

When I used to work for an insurance repair company, and gave the customers courtesy cars, no way would we pay the fines, we always used to pass the drivers details on for them to pay the fine. On saying that, I remember one memorable afternoon spent trying to find out who had had a certain car on a certain date, cos the person who'd done the filing was hopeless. It must have cost the company and arm and a leg in admin - would have been cheaper to pay the fine! But normally it would take 10 mins, max, I agree..

[Tools]

Re: Car Hire company pays PCN - denial of justice?

Here is something I came across a while ago, have only just found it.

I have received a notice of fixed penalty and 3 points on my license for jumping a red light. I cannot dispute the time/location but have no recollection of the offence, so have requested the photograph. The Notice Issue Date is 21 days after the offence, rather than the statutory 14 days, though the vehicle involved was a hire car. Does this mean I must still accept both the fixed penalty fine and the licence points?
In the case of a hire car, the issuing authority are given extra time to serve the NIP on the driver. You would have no "date expired" defence in this case and should accept both points and fine on the fixed penalty.

Seems there is not specific time constraints to issue a Notice of Impending Prosecution to the driver of a hired/leased vehicle. This being the case, National Car Rental have no reason to issue a charge against your credit card. Their procedure should have been to return the NIP to its issuer with your details against it.

Do you have any update on this?

Also you mentioned

Statutory Instrument 2001 No. 2285
The Road User Charging (Charges and Penalty Charges) (London) Regulations 2001

This is the congestion charging scheme brought into our wonderful capital by good old Ken Livingston. It does not refer to any traffic offences such as yours "infringing a box junction".

[HaliMac]

Re: Car Hire company pays PCN - denial of justice?

No update as yet Tools - am finalising my Halifax cases, which are more important. Hopefully i'll catch up over the next few days

[Tools]

Re: Car Hire company pays PCN - denial of justice?

No problems HaliMac,

Good luck with Halifax

Clunk, thud.....................just realised lol HaliMac = Halifax Mac, sometimes it takes a while, but I get there in the end

[HaliMac]

Re: Car Hire company pays PCN - denial of justice?

Hehehehehe.....