Am I Entitled To Copy of Recorded Conversation

[bh486]

Morning.
An individual claims to have recorded a meeting and a number of telephone conversations between myself and herself.

She claims that in one of these conversations I admitted to committing a crime (which I didn't).

If I demand them, is she requires by the law to supply me with copies of the alleged recordings?
If this is the case, how many days does she have to do so?

Also, my understanding of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act is that she is certainly entitled to record our conversations but SOLELY for her own use. She needs my prior written permission to distribute, broadcast or allow them to be listened to by a third party....this includes the Police.

So my second question is, whilst she is entitled to covertly record our conversations within rules above, is she still entitled to record and keep them when she has been specifically asked if she is recording, or if she intends to record a specific meeting and she replied categorically that she has not/will not?

Has she then committed a criminal deception in law?

Final question; If rather than recording the conversation, she has actually dialled a third party on her mobile phone and has allowed them to listen in to our conversation perhaps recording it or perhaps not, does the same law/rules apply as above?

Does this situation change where the third party is either an on-duty or off-duty Police Officer?

Thanks in advance for your help guys.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Am I Entitled To Copy of Recorded Conversation

What was the crime - or the nature of the crime - to which you allegedly confessed?

As to whether it might "stand up" as evidence, see Regina v Stagg (1994); I'd doubt that, by itself, it would even be enough to get an arraignment.

[bh486]

Re: Am I Entitled To Copy of Recorded Conversation

She states that I admitted to hacking her email account, but this is entirely irrelevant to my questions.

[Caspar]

Re: Am I Entitled To Copy of Recorded Conversation

Morning.
An individual claims to have recorded a meeting and a number of telephone conversations between myself and herself.

She claims that in one of these conversations I admitted to committing a crime (which I didn't).

If I demand them, is she requires by the law to supply me with copies of the alleged recordings? No, as long as they were only recorded for personal use and this person was acting as a normal individual rather than representing a company or trading as a sole trader.
If this is the case, how many days does she have to do so?

Also, my understanding of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act is that she is certainly entitled to record our conversations but SOLELY for her own use. She needs my prior written permission to distribute, broadcast or allow them to be listened to by a third party....this includes the Police.She is not allowed to share recordings with a third party. Also I am 100% sure that they cannot be used as evidence in a Court of Law without asking the judge for special permission to enable them to be admissable.

So my second question is, whilst she is entitled to covertly record our conversations within rules above, is she still entitled to record and keep them when she has been specifically asked if she is recording, or if she intends to record a specific meeting and she replied categorically that she has not/will not?
Whe you say meeting, I assume you are still talking about a conversation over the telephone. Again as long as it is for her personal use she is allowed to record it, whatever she said to you. She is allowed to change her mind.
Has she then committed a criminal deception in law? No, lying to you is not a criminal offence.

Final question; If rather than recording the conversation, she has actually dialled a third party on her mobile phone and has allowed them to listen in to our conversation perhaps recording it or perhaps not, does the same law/rules apply as above?No. Allowing access to a third party is not allowed.

Does this situation change where the third party is either an on-duty or off-duty Police Officer?A third party is a third party!

Thanks in advance for your help guys.

This link will be very useful for you I believe http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/archive/oftel/consumer/advice/faqs/prvfaq3.htm

[CleverClogs]

Re: Am I Entitled To Copy of Recorded Conversation

She states that I admitted to hacking her email account, but this is entirely irrelevant to my questions.

Its relevance is that the plods would need a lot more evidence than the word of a silly girl (even allegedly backed up with a recorded telephone conversation) to give the CPS a viable case of an alleged breach of the Computer Misuse Act. I doubt that it would even matter if, in the course of the conversation, you had correctly guessed that her password was "lardyarse", for you may already have considered her to be more than slightly steatopygous.

As for whether she had committed any sort of offence by playing the recording to a constable of the police, I believe that someone in the plods may enjoy something of a privileged position and that it would not be sensible to proceed against someone whose alleged violation of the RIPA was, ostensibly, for the purpose(s) of the detection and/or prevention of crime.

Finally, I'd say that you should consider de minimis non curat lex.

When's the essay for, anyway?

[shamen]

Re: Am I Entitled To Copy of Recorded Conversation

Also, my understanding of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act is that she is certainly entitled to record our conversations but SOLELY for her own use. She needs my prior written permission to distribute, broadcast or allow them to be listened to by a third party....this includes the Police.

Making a secret recording for your own records, is entirely allowed. There are a few laws that people rely on to say secret recordings cannot be used in court, namely the Data Protection Act and the Privacy Act

Depending on the type of meeting, it is possible that the Data Protection Act can be waived due to section 36:

Section 36 of the act states that personal data processed by an individual for the purpose of his or her personal, family or household affairs, including recreational purposes, is exempt from the data protection principles and requirements

This would apply for example if I were to make secret recordings of my Doctor, Health Visitor or Employer with the sole purpose of, and here's the key bit; making an accurate record of the conversation. The situation here being that if I wanted to have a transcript of a meeting which I may want to present to a court later on as an 'accurate record,' but to ensure that accuracy I secretly recorded the meeting so I could later produce the transcript accurately.

But what of privacy laws? Well, they only really apply in the setting of two people taking about their personal lives. For example, if you secretly record your doctor talking to you, the focus of the conversation will be about your medical needs. As with an employer, the focus will be about you as an employee. At no point will the private life of the doctor or employer be involved, so privacy laws dont really apply when the content of the secret recording is completely about your own private life.

The general gist is, if you secretly record a professional who is meeting with you, the discussion relates to nothing to do with that professionals private life and the purpose of the recording is for your personal record then it would be very difficult for a Solicitor to argue such evidence inadmissible under Data Protection Act or Privacy laws (though they will try im sure).

An interesting opinion is in the health service journal, when the question of patients secretly recording health workers came up http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...LVHBtw&cad=rja

A trick I once heard of was to make a transcript of the recording and present it as evidence as an accurate record. If the other side object, then counsel can offer the secret recording as corroboration for the transcript. Then fight the other side on the privacy/DPA objections using the points above.

[Caspar]

Re: Am I Entitled To Copy of Recorded Conversation

I doubt it would be allowed to offer a transcipt of the conversation unless, as stated in my post, the judge has given permission for the recording to be admissable as evidence in court.

It sounds a good trick in theory, but I doubt legally it would bear scrutiny.

[WendyB]

Re: Am I Entitled To Copy of Recorded Conversation

Forgive me for pointing this out, but the OP didn't actually ask if these recordings would be admissible in Court, nor did he/she say a claim had been brought against him/her by this girl. Unless/until the allegations turn into charges or a court claim, I don't see what relevance it has.

The OP was asking if the person was allowed to record him, and if she did, what could she do with it.

One thing I did wonder though, the bit where you say "(which I didn't)" was that didn't do it, or didn't admit to it in a conversation lol.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Am I Entitled To Copy of Recorded Conversation

One thing I did wonder though, the bit where you say "(which I didn't)" was that didn't do it, or didn't admit to it in a conversation lol.

Whilst I'd like to know is when his essay was due to be completed.

[shamen]

Re: Am I Entitled To Copy of Recorded Conversation

The OP was asking if the person was allowed to record him, and if she did, what could she do with it.

very good point Its easy to ramble off in different directions sometimes.

As for getting a copy of the recording, it depends in what capacity the recording was made. DPA should apply if the person making the recordings was acting on behalf of an organisation. If it was just a private individual, then DPA wont be of much help.

The OP also says that a police officer could have listened to or been party to the conversations. IF thats the case, can a DPA request be launched towards the police in question - an officer would have at least made notes? Im not sure on using DPA in this regard - perhaps someone else does? As far as I knew, officers notes were only available in discovery and not under DPA but I could be wrong.

[Caspar]

Re: Am I Entitled To Copy of Recorded Conversation

Hey Wendy, I answered every point asked in post #4. Given that the post had been answered it then drifted, but the answers needed had been given. lol

[WendyB]

Re: Am I Entitled To Copy of Recorded Conversation

Yes I know that. I read it. I was merely pointing out that the OT seemed to have been forgotten.

[bh486]

Re: Am I Entitled To Copy of Recorded Conversation

Hi. Thanks to Caspar and all the others who replied. Very helpful.

It's not for an "essay" sadly. This is a very real situation.

A couple of other scenarios appear to be likely as well:

That she has recorded our conversation at an actual meeting
That she has whilst at an actual meeting dialled someone using her mobile phone allowing them to listen in.

Do the same non-disclosure to third parties of covert recordings apply?

It does appear from her claims that IF she has recorded our conversations that she has also broadcast them to third parties - If I know that am I still unable to demand copies of them? This seems ridiculous.
If an individual has covertly recorded a conversation with another individual, surely they should be allowed to review what has been recorded.

It's a long story, but I do have a 2inch thick bundle of material evidence (gained legitimately and exchanged between the two of us....Not hacked!) that shows that she has either or both, lied to Police/lied to me about what the Police have told her in response to what she has/claims to have told them.

She has also admitted to effectively leading a 12 month campaign of deceit to obtain money from me.
That is the bottom line in all of this. She has been motivated entirely by money and admits it.

Her lying to Police and to me (and at least 2 other people that I know of (again I have material evidence to back this up) and her luring me to her house and entrapping me (long story) has resulted in them giving me a warning for harassment. I have never been in trouble with the Police before.

She is actually a Police civilian employee and advice has been to pursue a complaint via Force Professional Standards or IPCC route as based on the material evidence she has behaved dishonestly and without integrity and has discredited Police. These are two of the three categories under which a Police worker, civilian or otherwise can be complained about.

She has indicated that at least one Police officer is aware privately of what she has been doing and has done nothing to report her actions.
However, I don't think the Force is complicit though or that this is some kind of wider conspiracy.

She has certainly conspired with another person who is not in the employ of the Police however.

Should be an interesting ride....Given I live about 5 miles away and in the same County as her employers, I think I may need to move and buy a new car shortly! :0)

[Caspar]

Re: Am I Entitled To Copy of Recorded Conversation

Hi. Thanks to Caspar and all the others who replied. Very helpful.

It's not for an "essay" sadly. This is a very real situation.

A couple of other scenarios appear to be likely as well:

That she has recorded our conversation at an actual meeting
That she has whilst at an actual meeting dialled someone using her mobile phone allowing them to listen in.

Do the same non-disclosure to third parties of covert recordings apply? I would interpret disclosure to a third party as just that, regardless of how it is disclosed.

It does appear from her claims that IF she has recorded our conversations that she has also broadcast them to third parties - If I know that am I still unable to demand copies of them? This seems ridiculous. You can take court action against her for a breach of the Data Protection Act 1998 where she could well be forced to give cpoies of the recordings to you.
If an individual has covertly recorded a conversation with another individual, surely they should be allowed to review what has been recorded. As above. They are not allowed to do it, so fo force disclosure you would need to take court action as far as I understand things.

It's a long story, but I do have a 2inch thick bundle of material evidence (gained legitimately and exchanged between the two of us....Not hacked!) that shows that she has either or both, lied to Police/lied to me about what the Police have told her in response to what she has/claims to have told them.

She has also admitted to effectively leading a 12 month campaign of deceit to obtain money from me.
That is the bottom line in all of this. She has been motivated entirely by money and admits it.

Her lying to Police and to me (and at least 2 other people that I know of (again I have material evidence to back this up) and her luring me to her house and entrapping me (long story) has resulted in them giving me a warning for harassment. I have never been in trouble with the Police before. If you have all this evidence, my best advice would be to take it to the police (make sure you keep the originals) who would have to take action, regardless of who she is.

She is actually a Police civilian employee and advice has been to pursue a complaint via Force Professional Standards or IPCC route as based on the material evidence she has behaved dishonestly and without integrity and has discredited Police. These are two of the three categories under which a Police worker, civilian or otherwise can be complained about. I'd still go to a Police Station first with your evidence, or a solicitor (first consultation is usually free), though this has to be your choice.

She has indicated that at least one Police officer is aware privately of what she has been doing and has done nothing to report her actions.
However, I don't think the Force is complicit though or that this is some kind of wider conspiracy.

She has certainly conspired with another person who is not in the employ of the Police however.

Should be an interesting ride....Given I live about 5 miles away and in the same County as her employers, I think I may need to move and buy a new car shortly! :0) Well, I've outlined a few options, others may come up with more. I assume all your evidence is concrete evidence and not your word against hers? When it becomes a case of one persons word against anothers, then serious difficulties can arise. A few other questions - if you pursue this, is she likely to think you are doing? Will the recordings still be there or will they have been deleted etc... Playing Devil's Advocate with you it would appear easy, without knowing all the details, for her to put you in a position where it is your word against hers.

[bh486]

Re: Am I Entitled To Copy of Recorded Conversation

Thanks again Caspar.

The material evidence is made up of text messages, emails and instant message conversations.

She claims to believe that she thinks I will make a complaint and apparently "we're ready for it".

She appears to have genuinely forgotten the truth of the situation and actually believes her own BS which is that which she has told everyone else.

She doesn't appear to realise that the material evidence is contrary to the story she has concocted...I believe rather than being deluded she is trying to call my bluff by continuing the lie.

My lawyer reckons we can try with the Police for harassment (her deception of
Me stretches back 12 months) and obtaining money by deception.

If proceedings were begun a court order could be obtained to get other documentation from
ISPs (ironically that which she alleges i have hacked) which I believe would prove conspiracy, perverting the course of justice and wasting police time.

This might end up in the Daily Mail yet!