Human rights issue or not?

[dazarich]

Hi there. I posted this tongue in cheek in the family section but my question may not be related to family law so thought I’d try here. I recently provided the police and social services audio recordings of my neighbour assaulting her 5y/o daughter. She is a neighbour and has 3 children. I recorded 3 incidents in one day, of her laying into her daughter and an admission in detail of what she had done to her, whilst she was talking on the phone to her husband. The footage was very disturbing and as a result the children have been taken off her to live with grand parents. She can only have supervised visits for the time being. She also received a police caution. I sent the recordings to one social worker via email, and one police officer in the child protection unit. I have not shown it to anyone else apart from my husband (who was present when I recorded them) I used an iPad and a wall microphone to get a clear recording of her doing it, and a good recording app. No personal data and nothing irrelevant was recorded. She is now seeking a solicitor in relation to a breach of human rights with regards to the recordings. Is what I have done legal or not? Will I get prosecuted? I have asked the police officer in charge of the investigation but have had no response. She also wants to obtain the footage herself (I can’t see why as it is shameful) will the police just hand it over to her?
Many thanks

[Tea anyone?]

HI Dazarich, Have you contacted the Equality and Human Rights Comission?, they may be able to guide you.
on a personal note , she is lucky it was you and not me

[des8]

Reporting a suspected crime (even if mistaken) to the police is not prosecutable (if that is even a word)
Similarly reporting suspected child abuse to social services can only be laudable.

Gathering evidence to support allegations, eg recordings which are only released to the authorities would IMO be a protected act.

And what about the child's human rights!

She is seeking a solicitor..... I wonder if she will find one!

[Peridot]

Hi Dazarich,
It is a really tough one. The Family Courts are more open to using covert recordings in private family matters but this is usually between parents or a parent and professionals, the social worker for example. The Court's view varies widely however and although it is not illegal to covertly record other people there can be an issue if third parties such as police/social services are then provided with recordings that have not been consented to being passed on. This is where the human rights and data protection issues arise.

How did the neighbour find out you had recorded them? I assume the police/social services told them? Are they planning on using the recording in the public law Children Act case do you know? Have they asked you for a statement? You would need to speak to them with regard to the use of the recording.

It would be for the neighbour to bring a claim against for breach of he right to respect for private and family life under the Human Rights Act Article 8.
The whole circumstances would be looked at.

Had you informed social services or the police previously about issues you were witnessing with the children?
There are a lot of issues here and should you receive a claim I would strongly advice you seek legal advice before responding.
There are a couple of sites you can visit that explain some of the issues :- https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/la...d-family-life/
and here:- https://www.familylawweek.co.uk/site.aspx?i=ed160225

The child's welfare is of course paramount and may well be taken into consideration but as far as third party release of the recording is concerned

and the issues surrounding data protection as well as human rights,

you would need to take face to face legal advice should a claim be forthcoming. A claim may never arise of course, depending on the content of the recording and the level of seriousness of the situation to the child, the neighbour may be advised not to take this further. It could be detrimental to the issue of where the child(ren) end up.

[dazarich]

Hi all firstly many thanks for your replies. And yes DES8 my thoughts exactly “what about the child’s human rights?” Peridot my husband I were willing for the police to tell her who reported her, as anonymous reports are difficult to bring a successful conviction and something to be done in terms of the child’s safety. In addition to this the recordings could have only come from one place; which was my house. They attempted to get her to admit what she’s done before revealing the evidence. So she lied to start with.
We gave a statement, emailed over the recordings, then were told to vacate our property over night while they went to her house and didn’t want us to be there to hear the turmoil and we didn’t want to be there.
The neighbours had moved in last summer and were a very loud and chaotic family. She shouts even when she’s on the phone and is non stop chattering loudly. Our walls are proberbly no better than a shed and can ‘almost hear word for word, things that are said. So I would have to turn the volume up on my tv to drown out the noise. To my surprise, and ironically, I received a complaint Dom the housing association made by her, about the noise levels coming from my tv
It wasn’t until I was forced to turn the volume right down, that I heard the noise was of a far more sinister nature. I could not sit in my living room hearing those shrilling cries, and vicious thuds and verbal aggression, so decided to record it as explaining it would be believable. A normal voice app wasn’t clear enough to record exactly what was going on, so I purchased a wall microphone, and blue tacked earphones to the speaker of the iPad, which worked a treat. On the 2nd day of the using the microphone, I captured 2 physical incidents, and a phone call to her husband, telling him how she “stamped on her head, pulled her pants down and leathered her 12 times” she then went on to say ‘then she called me a cow, so I hit her so hard her head bounced off the sofa, I hit her like she was an adult” so what I couldn’t see I got a pretty good picture from that admission, so did everyone else at the police station.
Her old solicitor had told her to take the caution as, if she didn’t she will be going to prison for sure. She took the caution but she felt her solicitor wasn’t enough of a miracle worker, so looked for a new one. She now has an “aggressive” solicitor at a firm who are dealing with the social services and I’m sure he hasn’t heard the recordings, because I’ve heard her telling him the recordings are of her smaking her daughters hand *♀️. My neighbours mother (who is no role model) will be perusing another solicitor at the same firm for the human rights issue, as they can’t deal with 2 issues at the same time so they are perusing separate issues. Is it wise to hand over the recordings if they ask for them? And will they ask for them?
sorry for the long reply but thought I’d enlighten you to the circumstances which maybe relevant.
This has been a living hell and it’s so uncomfortable living yards away from each other. No one is replying to my emails or calls ie the housing association or the police to which I asked how long the marker is on my property in the event of an attack, but as yet no answer. I’ve also heard threats of my windows being put through and how she’s planning to “get me back” ...I was meant to hear this as it was aimed loudly at my living room wall. However if I tell the housing or police they won’t belive I heard this through a wall I havn’t used the devices since as I don’t need them to hear in real time, only for recording. I hate the sound of her voice and wish I couldn’t hear her, she causes anxiety for both of us. The frustrating thing is, she’s pregnant and if it wasn’t for that I would’ve broken her jaw by now to shut her up, so I can’t do anything

[des8]

People tend to shout "Human Rights" and refer to article 8 Human Rights Act without ever having read it.
The act refers to acts by the government, but exceptions are in accordance with the law
Here it is in full with parts highlighted in red which would IMO apply in this case:
Right to respect for private and family life

1Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.

2There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

Whilst I agree with Peridot that you should seek professional advice if you do receive a claim, IMO any such claim would be ill founded and easily defended.

[dazarich]

DES8 that’s great the protection of freedom and rights of others is very relevant here. That’s exactly what I aimed to achieve not mention crime prevention too. That’s fab thank you

[charitynjw]

There is similar provision in ?Sch 2? Data Protection Act 2018.

Crime

2The listed provisions do not apply to personal data processed for any of the following purposes—

(a)the prevention and detection of crime, or

(b)the apprehension and prosecution of offenders,

to the extent that the application of the listed provisions would be likely to prejudice any of the matters mentioned in paragraph (a) or (b).

[JCE]

There is similar provision in Sch 11 Data Protection Act 2018.

If not mistaken, Sch 11 DPA 2018 only relates to Part 4 which is the processing by Intelligence Services, hence not applicable in this context.

[charitynjw]

If not mistaken, Sch 11 DPA 2018 only relates to Part 4 which is the processing by Intelligence Services, hence not applicable in this context.

Lol
Apologies.....should have been Schedule 2, not Sch 11? (I think)
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/...raph/5/enacted

(I blame the drink, meself!)

[JCE]

Lol
Apologies.....should have been Schedule 2, not Sch 11? (I think)
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/...raph/5/enacted

(I blame the drink, meself!)

Was there a "Information required to be disclosed by law etc or in connection with legal proceedings" according to that paragraph?
No legal proceedings had been started at the time the covert recordings were sent to the police.. and the private individual providing the recordings would not be considered a data controller either..?!

[charitynjw]

Was there a "Information required to be disclosed by law etc or in connection with legal proceedings" according to that paragraph?
No legal proceedings had been started at the time the covert recordings were sent to the police.. and the private individual providing the recordings would not be considered a data controller either..?!

She [neighbour] is now seeking a solicitor in relation to a breach of human rights with regards to the recordings.

I have found, on several different occasions, that the devil is in the detail.
I have used SARs (& in particular this part of the DPA) to find out third party details (ie exactly what a third party has said....& which third party said it) which would normally be covered by the usual non disclosure of third party info.
On every one of these occasions it has stopped any proposed action (or threats of same) dead in it's tracks.