Some Advice on an Spouse that is avoiding paying agreed court orders

[martinbrawn]

Re: Some Advice on an Spouse that is avoiding paying agreed court orders

If you're gf has already been through the court process successfully, why hasn't he been dragged back to court for breaching.....well, everything?

Hi, my gf has gone back to court numerous times for the financial order items he has broken and the contact order issues, he has never turned up and always phones the court the day before and says he is abroad on business and cannot attend, unfortunately we do not have the funds to employ solicitors.

[martinbrawn]

Re: Some Advice on an Spouse that is avoiding paying agreed court orders

Hi, he is a director and co owner of a uk based business, in addition he is employed with a data warehouse storage company who are world wide, he has just had himself transferred to their Swiss office hence why the csa cannot touch him.

Do you think we could start bankrupcy proceedings on the uk business?

[martinbrawn]

Re: Some Advice on an Spouse that is avoiding paying agreed court orders

Another thought - at the risk of stating the blindingly obvious: there are two completely separate issues here, ie 1) when and where he see the girls and 2) the money aspect. It is repugnant by anyone's standards for him to connect the two by saying the more he pays the more he can dictate the circumstances.

As a parent but not a lawyer, IMHO:


- their mother should decide (being ruthlessly honest with herself) what is best for the children in terms of frequency and venue for his contact with them and TELL him what those terms are. There really isn't any point in shilly-shallying with narcissistic bullies because they alway win if you do and she does have you to support her on this. If it were my children I would be very careful indeed about him taking them out of the country, particularly at this young age and certainly not without very firm ground rules. If at all possible the contact plan should be made without any consideration as to the funds he might or might not provide.

- I don't know for sure but it does seem likely that as a British subject he is subject to the law of the land and therefore court orders would still apply. (See Cel's post above) Would also pursue the REMO route (will certainly see if I can find out more about this). There will be many others here on this site actively looking to help you and it is to be hoped that there will be a remedy that doesn't incur you in even more legal costs. People here can advise you as to possible legal actions you can take but it is always wise to run any of your decisions past your solicitor.

It also may be possible to reclaim costs from the father as he is in breach of his responsibilities as determined by the courts.

He definitely must not be allowed to keep changing arrangements and messing the girls around - it'll screw them up.


Very best wishes!

Hi and thanks for your reply, my gf is seeing a solicitor tomorrow to understand if the court order for contact is still valid as he now lives out the of the uk, common sense says to me that if the csa, caps etc cannot pursue him as he is outside the eu, then surely he cannot come back on her if she denies contact ? Denying contact is not something we want to do as we want the children to see their father, however he is a bully and the only way to deal with a bully is to stand up to them, and by denying contact i hope he will pay, being a narc of course he will threaten with police and send abusive texts etc, but i think anyone who has dealt with a bully knows, it always gets worse before it gets better.

Martin

[Inca]

Re: Some Advice on an Spouse that is avoiding paying agreed court orders

Can I just say,,those girls are going to grow up very quickly,and they see a lot more than we parents give them credit for. He may well regret his actions later on when the kids decide for themselves he's been a pleb.

[martinbrawn]

Re: Some Advice on an Spouse that is avoiding paying agreed court orders

May be of use:

http://www.justice.gov.uk/protecting...cial-solicitor

http://www.justice.gov.uk/downloads/...ation-list.pdf (It includes Switzerland!)

Reciprocal enforcement of maintenance orders

Reciprocal enforcement of maintenance orders (REMO) is how:

• maintenance orders made by UK courts, on behalf of UK residents, can be registered and enforced by courts or other authorities in other countries against people resident there; or
• a claim for maintenance by a UK resident against a person resident in another country can be dealt with in that country.

REMO is also how orders made in other countries can be dealt with here.
The Lord Chancellor delegates his operational responsibilities as the transmitting and receiving agency and Central Authority to the REMO Unit, which is located in the Office of the Official Solicitor and Public Trustee.
How to apply

A UK resident who wishes to apply to obtain maintenance from a person overseas should contact:

• their local magistrates' court (or county court where the order was made) if they have an existing court order for maintenance; or
• their local magistrates' court if there is no existing order.

Countries and territories with reciprocal maintenance arrangements with the United Kingdom

The UK has REMO arrangements with more than 100 countries and territories worldwide.
Download the full list of countries (PDF 0.4Mb)
Conventions and agreements

The UK is part of several international conventions on maintenance obligations, including:

• the 1956 United Nations Convention on the Recovery Abroad of Maintenance
• the 1968 Brussels Convention on Jurisdiction and the Enforcement of Judgements in Civil and Commercial Matters; and
• the 1973 Hague Convention on the Recognition and Enforcement of Decisions Relating to Maintenance Obligations.

In addition, the UK has agreements for maintenance enforcement with most members of the Commonwealth and with most of the United States of America. The process involved in each case depends on the convention or agreement of which the other country is a part.
Obtaining and enforcing maintenance decisions in the 27 EU countries

The following forms are for use if you are in one EU country and you want to obtain or enforce a maintenance order in another EU country.
The guidance notes are for use if you are in England and Wales.
To apply for recognition or declaration of enforceability or enforcement of a decision relating to maintenance obligations use the following form and guidance notes:
REMO 7 - Application form (referred to in Annex VI of Council Regulation (EC) No 4/2009) (PDF 0.12mb)
REMO 7 notes - Guidance for completing REMO 7 form (Annex VI of Council Regulation (EC) No 4/2000) (PDF 0.05mb)
To apply for a maintenance decision or to have a decision relating to maintenance changed use the following form and guidance notes:
REMO 8 - Application form (referred to in Annex VII of Council Regulation (EC) No 4/2009) (PDF 0.13mb)
REMO 8 notes - Guidance for completing REMO 8 form (Annex VII of Council Regulation (EC) No 4/2009) (PDF 0.05mb)
For members of the public

If you are a member of the public and require more information about Reciprocal Enforcement of Maintenance abroad, you can find it on Directgov.
With effect from 18 June 2011 Council Regulation (EC) No 4/2009 (also known as the Maintenance Regulation) deals with the reciprocal enforcement of maintenance in cross-border situations between Member States of the European Union. The scope of the Maintenance Regulation covers all maintenance obligations arising from a family relationship, parentage, marriage or affinity. The Maintenance Regulation will enable a maintenance creditor to obtain a decision which will be automatically enforceable in another Member State.
Please be aware that pursuant to Council Regulation (EC) No 4/2009, information may be collected on a debtor and/or creditor named in an application under this Regulation by accessing information from public or administrative authorities that may hold the information required.

Hi and thanks for posting this, to be honest i have already read through this info myself, my question is how long it takes and how effective is it, my gf is seeing a solicitor tomorrow to ask this question.

I know that if she could communicate with him and ignore the abuse, he would eventually run out of steam, all narcs and bullies want a reaction and if you dont react, they will keep trying but eventually get bored.

I have read every disgusting email and text he has sent her, and to be honest i emailed him when he had a parcel for himself delivered to her house, not their old house but one she has bought on her own.
You need to talk to these people in a certain way, and I know how to do this, however my gf becomes so upset when he rants.

He ranted abuse at me when i asked him when he was going to pick the parcel up as I told my gf there was no way it was being delivered to him when she next took the girls to Guildford, i didnt react and just asked him the same question, which in typical narc style he ignored. It was only when i pointed out to him that he had sent abusive emails from his employers email address, did he got slightly quiet when i said i would forward them to his HR dept. But he still replied with if he lost his job then he couldnt pay for the house we all live in, the fact is i have my own properties and the house is paid for outright with the lumpsum she got.

Narc rules, I am right and you are wrong

Sorry to go on, its been two years of stuff like the above , and to be honest i would pay for two blokes to go and put the wind up him in the early hours if it was my choice.


Rant over, sorry.

[MissFM]

Re: Some Advice on an Spouse that is avoiding paying agreed court orders

http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/reciproca...tenance-orders

[martinbrawn]

Re: Some Advice on an Spouse that is avoiding paying agreed court orders

Can I just say,,those girls are going to grow up very quickly,and they see a lot more than we parents give them credit for. He may well regret his actions later on when the kids decide for themselves he's been a pleb.

I agree completely and have said this to my gf manytimes, he tries to buy their affection which will run out.

He says in his emails that he will make it his lifes work to make her suffer, and that the kids will hate her, i know this is all whats called projection however my gf thinks it will come true, classic case of the bully and narc making the victim thinks its true.

[martinbrawn]

Re: Some Advice on an Spouse that is avoiding paying agreed court orders

Thank you

[Inca]

Re: Some Advice on an Spouse that is avoiding paying agreed court orders

This will be my last post 'off topic' cos the guys on here are so fab at sorting legalities out and I don't want your thread full of my babble. Tell your g/f,,from me,I had exactly the same idle threats made by my ex.....kids would hate me.......will find out I'm a tart.....kept them from him.......so on and so forth.
My 24 year old calls his Dad his 'sperm donor'..my 2 stepchildren from my 2nd marriage don't talk to either of their biological parents but are devoted to me,,and my OH's 14 year old daughter wants to live with me!!
Keep dignified,,as hard as it is,,I know the urge to batter him bandy is great but don't do anything that will bite you on the bum. Support your lady and I promise ,,things WILL get better,,takes time but it does .

[Celestine]

Re: Some Advice on an Spouse that is avoiding paying agreed court orders

What a nasty controlling narcissist eh?

I'm glad your gf is seeing her lawyer tomorrow.

This needs to go back to court and the original order enforced. Your poor gf has already done the hard work with getting the judgment, now it needs enforcing.

[martinbrawn]

Re: Some Advice on an Spouse that is avoiding paying agreed court orders

Hi all, I am after some advice for my gf, she is very pessimistic about advice on forums however I often seek advice or help on all sorts of forums, hence me being.

Here is a brief ( i will try to be) note of the situation followed by some questions;

My gf and ex husband have been to court over financials and contact after not being able to agree on anything, she is not a strong person and he displays constant bully behaviour, his way or no way.

Financial agreement, and he agreed to this in court, she would get the savings of £160K, £1300 per month child maintenance, and £500 per month spousal, that is alot of money however he does earn over £100k plus bonuses per annum.

Contact agreement, she has residency in the uk, he sees the two girls every other weekend and has them for half of all school holidays, she takes them to his last residence in Guildford by 5.30 on the Friday, he drops them back to Fareham by 6pm on the Sunday ( approx 45 miles each way).

He has never paid the spousal maintenance and the debt is currently £14k, He refused to pay the child maintenance and the CSA got an attachment of earnings so he had no choice. Caps have been after him to recover the spousal however he has recently in December 2012 moved to Switzerland, therefore outside the EU so the CSA have no way of collecting the maintenance.

He has repeatedly ignored most of the agreements in both court orders for maintenance or contact, and only abides by the courts orders when it suits him but expects her to abide by all of it all of the time. For example he was told not to communicate anything to do with contact arrangements through the children yet continues to through the eldest 13 year old girl, causing anxiety and upset to her. He was also supposed to give 2 months notice, as she is, of any change of address, he has moved twice in the last year and only told her once the move is complete.

He shouted in court that he wanted to see the children and demanded the time etc, yet drops them off early or doesnt have them depending on his plans.

Due to having no fixed address in the uk for the last 6 months, the children spend their weekends with their father in hotels in and around Guildford, meaning no homework gets done etc and the often have to share a sofa bed.

He shows all the traits of a narcissist, if any of you have had dealings with this type of person, I have in my ex, then you know their irrational and uncompromising behaviour.

My gf, whilst i love her with all my heart , has behaved as best as she could as she is emotionally involved, I have offered support and advice as best I can.

My jobs involve studying behaviours and personality types, so i have tried to remain un biased in any advice.

Current situation

He has moved to Switzerland, CSA have closed the file so no money coming in to support the children.
She has still been delivering the children to Guildford where he books a hotel, he has demanded in his text, detailed on next line, that she will take them to an airport and they can fly to him in Switzerland, the children are girls of 11 and 13.
He sent a text in early December detailing he would pay £2k per month , however there was a list of demands that were not livable, for example that my gf delivered the children to where ever he was in the uk, when he wanted, for a stay of as long as he wanted. If she did anything he didnt like he would deduct £500 for each thing he didnt like, plus about another 15 demands, and she was given 24hours to accept and was told it was non negotiable.

Questions and advice please?

Does a UK court order for contact still apply and be legal if he is now living in Switzerland? He is a uk citizen but has no UK residential address.

Is a REMO worth while and an effective method of securing the maintenance, if so how long does it take, if not what are the other options ( bear in mind that he will only do something if he sees its in his interest to do so)

If she communicated the ultimatum of no maintenance no contact, what are the implications, my gf wants the children to see their father as agreed.

Any suggestions advice that may be useful.

My advice has been to stand up to the bully and put boundaries in place that are not to be broken, for example there are both to give each other all details of flights, hotels etc if they are taking the children abroad, 3 weeks in advance of any travel so the other parent knows where the children are, he has never done this and always texts through the eldest child on the day of departure or texts my gf once he has taken them, ( he has already brought them back into the country late from a holiday and they both missed two days of school), my advice was no details no travel.

any thoughts are welcome

Regards

Martin

Hi all, it turns out the contact order does still apply and she has been advised not to stop contact as it would look bad on her should they ever return to court.

To pursue a REMO is going to cost circa £10k.

And yesterday he yet again ruled our lives my getting the eldest to text me and my gf to say they would be home at 3.30pm, despite the fact he has been told not to communicate through a child and that he bleated in court that he wanted them till 6.30pm.

He has sent us both foul emails from his work account so I am considering forwarding them to his HR dept, we have nothing to lose now as hes not paying.

Any thoughts.

[labman]

Re: Some Advice on an Spouse that is avoiding paying agreed court orders

Hi all, it turns out the contact order does still apply and she has been advised not to stop contact as it would look bad on her should they ever return to court.

To pursue a REMO is going to cost circa £10k.

And yesterday he yet again ruled our lives my getting the eldest to text me and my gf to say they would be home at 3.30pm, despite the fact he has been told not to communicate through a child and that he bleated in court that he wanted them till 6.30pm.

He has sent us both foul emails from his work account so I am considering forwarding them to his HR dept, we have nothing to lose now as hes not paying.

Any thoughts.

It will almost certainly be against his comany's IT Policy to use it for personal use. If you are feeling vindictive, then that option is clearly open to you. I would just caution that if, for any reason, this were to cause him to lose his job, you would put him in a position of being able to ask for a variation of the original court order due to a change in circumstances.

[MissFM]

Re: Some Advice on an Spouse that is avoiding paying agreed court orders

Hi all, it turns out the contact order does still apply and she has been advised not to stop contact as it would look bad on her should they ever return to court.

To pursue a REMO is going to cost circa £10k.

And yesterday he yet again ruled our lives my getting the eldest to text me and my gf to say they would be home at 3.30pm, despite the fact he has been told not to communicate through a child and that he bleated in court that he wanted them till 6.30pm.

He has sent us both foul emails from his work account so I am considering forwarding them to his HR dept, we have nothing to lose now as hes not paying.

Any thoughts.

Agree with labman, retaliation by the means you describe might backfire horribly.

Try to keep cool and not react whatever the provocation.

If pursuing the REMO would cost 10K and he already owes 14K (if I have understood correctly) it might be worth doing?

It also seems that as he is part owner of a UK company the court order can be enforced that way (you would need to galvanize the CSA etc and the court that gave the order). It is in their professed rules that this is the case - just because an official/employee or even several can't be a$$ed does not mean it is unenforceable. (Have lost the link for the mo but it's the standard direct gov stuff - will find and post)