Child intervention; Right to family v Social workers

[Openlaw15]

It is said that in democratic countries its natural citizens have automatic human rights including the right to family life, not to be interrupted by the 'state' except where there are 'qualified rights. To which extent should the state via the local authorities (Councils), who employ family specialists such as social workers and other intervention/ practitioners, be permitted to use a 'qualified right' to interrupt the human/ other rights of natural citizens to exercise their freedoms, amongst other things the right to enjoy a family life and discipline children where those same persons believe it is justified. If a person marks their child by smacking them hard for instance when they walk into a busy road, or walk into an unguarded open fire, and countless other dangers, to stop them from doing this again, for example, is the state action really justified? On the other hand, if parents do 'go too far,' does it justify the state's '|Child Protection Register?' Is prevention by said CPR the same as a 'cure'? If it (the state, ie social workers) were justified to interrupt family's private lives, to which extent should it be justified? What rights do citizens really have against the state where its nature is of a family/ family court matter?

What right do parents really have - is it guilty until proven innocent in family courts once allegations are raised, or innocent until proven guilty as per criminal law standards? Do you agree the guilty until proven innocent? If so, why?

[Kati]

Re: Child intervention; Right to family v Social workers

Not a bad discussion [MENTION=77627]Openlaw15[/MENTION] ... although I notice that you have not given your opinion yet

I'll put a link to the Children Act 1989 here for reference - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1989/41/contents

[des8]

Re: Child intervention; Right to family v Social workers

It strikes me that everybody has rights, but no one seems to have corresponding responsibilities!

Parents have rights and reponsibilities,
Children have rights
The state has a responsibility to protect children from parents who abdicate their responsibilities.
How does one decide if responsibilities have been abdicated?
A lot depends on the standards of the time.
When I was young (long time ago) corporal punishment of children of a severity no longer acceptable was the norm
A fine line has to be trodden and I thank the Lord I am not a social worker to be damned if I do, and damned if I don't

[Kati]

Re: Child intervention; Right to family v Social workers

15 years ago now my sons were placed on the Child Protection Register ... I was a young mum with two children under the age of 2 and had just left a violent/abusive relationship. Unbeknown to me (at that time) the man was under investigation for child cruelty and there was an assumption that I would end up returning to him :sad:

I re-located half way across the country (first in a Women's Refuge and then in a council house) and had my first visit from SS. This woman appeared on my doorstep the day after I had moved in to my 'new' house ... I had been given a loan from the social fund to carpet/furnish the place and was just about to go out to purchase things. She introduced herself and invited herself in, where she proceeded to berate me for daring to move in to a house that had no carpets. She told me that my children would be removed and put up for adoption because I was putting them in danger! Bearing in mind I had spent one night in the house and was going to buy carpets that day I was (quite rightly) annoyed at her presumptive attitude and told her to leave. She again threatened to have my children removed. Her manager was called, I refused to have anything to do with this woman ever again.

I was given a different social worker who turned out to be really nice ... she arranged for us to have the house fully furnished by a local church group. Within a week we were settled.

.................................................. .................................................. ...................

I will never forget my first dealings with SS and Child Protection. These people have so much power that it can sometimes go to their heads. They should remember that many of their 'clients' are worried or scared, more than a few have left abusive partners, they are poor, or overworked and underpaid. A little kindness and understanding can go a long way towards building a good working relationship where the parents feel valued and supported.

[JulieM]

Re: Child intervention; Right to family v Social workers

Kati
Your ordeal sounds truly horrifying. What gives anyone the right to make judgements without at least investigating the circumstances. I would have thought that being in a refuge and moving into a council house many miles form an abusive partner would be a good indication that you were serious about getting away.

II remember there were several cases reported where social services took action that was later rightly reversed by the courts and many families were affected.

Unfortuneately social workers have have been the victims of cuts and front line social workers now tend to be young, inexperienced , overworked and u dear supported.They are sometimes damned if they do and damned if they don't. I would not want to be a children's social worker for any money.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Child intervention; Right to family v Social workers

It strikes me that everybody has rights, but no one seems to have corresponding responsibilities!

Parents have rights and reponsibilities,
Children have rights
The state has a responsibility to protect children from parents who abdicate their responsibilities.
How does one decide if responsibilities have been abdicated?
A lot depends on the standards of the time.
When I was young (long time ago) corporal punishment of children of a severity no longer acceptable was the norm
A fine line has to be trodden and I thank the Lord I am not a social worker to be damned if I do, and damned if I don't

Does time really matter? Have social workers been manufactured in universities to be shaped by European-esque rights, thereby sacrificing parents' autonomy? My view is a legal view, and one of my own opinion, which are not necessarily the same. In terms of the law, yes the 'qualified right' of the state should be limited when families exercise their rights to discipline their children. It is said, we live in a 'nanny state' where the state dictates what persons should do with their own children. This is not to say and neither would I condone, that bullying parents should be tolerated. However, lots of middle class parents don't discipline their children - they seemingly just shout at them. Does shouting create trauma easily though where the children are developing? Are loud sounds really appropriate or will it or they cause other harm to the child, ie could this be verbal abuse? My own opinion is that society needs to regulate itself more than the nanny state. On the other hand, my own opinion also recognises that human should self regulate their actions too, to the extent which is possible for them. The alternative is that some societies will necessarily have more problems to deal with, so disciplining their children using some type of slapping may be the only way. The question remains, how does it affect social workers and potentially criminalising the parents, or the child living with a 'Children's Protection Register', how would they (the child/ children) feel. Are social workers equipped for the task, are they incompetent when they get it wrong, or too competent which leads to destroying families (depending how you view competency)? For instance, is it better for social workers to drag parents over the hot coals for any allegations made against them than have, what would really now be, the extreme possibility of the Baby P situation? After-all, a social worker on the one hand is a lawyer, a doctor, psychologist and sociologist all rolled into one. Is it a professional on the cheap - a McDonaldisation of society? Alternatively, is it necessary for a modern evolved state with all the changes and perhaps the new rights?

[Openlaw15]

Re: Child intervention; Right to family v Social workers

15 years ago now my sons were placed on the Child Protection Register ... I was a young mum with two children under the age of 2 and had just left a violent/abusive relationship. Unbeknown to me (at that time) the man was under investigation for child cruelty and there was an assumption that I would end up returning to him :sad:

I re-located half way across the country (first in a Women's Refuge and then in a council house) and had my first visit from SS. This woman appeared on my doorstep the day after I had moved in to my 'new' house ... I had been given a loan from the social fund to carpet/furnish the place and was just about to go out to purchase things. She introduced herself and invited herself in, where she proceeded to berate me for daring to move in to a house that had no carpets. She told me that my children would be removed and put up for adoption because I was putting them in danger! Bearing in mind I had spent one night in the house and was going to buy carpets that day I was (quite rightly) annoyed at her presumptive attitude and told her to leave. She again threatened to have my children removed. Her manager was called, I refused to have anything to do with this woman ever again.

I was given a different social worker who turned out to be really nice ... she arranged for us to have the house fully furnished by a local church group. Within a week we were settled.

.................................................. .................................................. ...................

I will never forget my first dealings with SS and Child Protection. These people have so much power that it can sometimes go to their heads. They should remember that many of their 'clients' are worried or scared, more than a few have left abusive partners, they are poor, or overworked and underpaid. A little kindness and understanding can go a long way towards building a good working relationship where the parents feel valued and supported.

So sorry to hear that Kati, this topic for you therefore really hits home.

"I will never forget my first dealings with SS and Child Protection. These people have so much power that it can sometimes go to their heads. They should remember that many of their 'clients' are worried or scared, more than a few have left abusive partners, they are poor, or overworked and underpaid. A little kindness and understanding can go a long way towards building a good working relationship where the parents feel valued and supported. "

How does the average person cope in this very personal situation when he or she is essentially fighting the entire state with all its resources, pressures. We have in camera (secret) family courts, a court system of job for the boys, ie all the professionals are well paid. What about the family, can they ever trust people again? Brilliant that you were put with a more fair, decent human being/ social worker. Social worker, even the term suggest that they should be helping society, not being on a power trip. What about when they do get in wrong in the sense that they have abused their powers? Would parents feel competent to complain, or would they be at that point, nervous wrecks and sceptic of the entire public system?

"She introduced herself and invited herself in, where she proceeded to berate me for daring to move in to a house that had no carpets. She told me that my children would be removed and put up for adoption because I was putting them in danger! Bearing in mind I had spent one night in the house and was going to buy carpets that day I was (quite rightly) annoyed at her presumptive attitude and told her to leave. She again threatened to have my children removed. Her manager was called, I refused to have anything to do with this woman ever again."

I wonder how many there are of these type? When she threatened to have your kids removed in what was modern time really: 2001, was she disciplined by the manager? Did she keep her job, or was she given more training? Is training required or should be they be forced out of the job?

[Openlaw15]

Re: Child intervention; Right to family v Social workers

Kati
Your ordeal sounds truly horrifying. What gives anyone the right to make judgements without at least investigating the circumstances. I would have thought that being in a refuge and moving into a council house many miles form an abusive partner would be a good indication that you were serious about getting away.

II remember there were several cases reported where social services took action that was later rightly reversed by the courts and many families were affected.

Unfortuneately social workers have have been the victims of cuts and front line social workers now tend to be young, inexperienced , overworked and u dear supported.They are sometimes damned if they do and damned if they don't. I would not want to be a children's social worker for any money.

The test is significant harm to the child. A social worker's mind is likely on the previous problem and the risks from the past where there was an abusive relationship. Unless the parents are educated and or confident, would they have the means to challenge the social workers/ local authority. What about if it comes to challenging the state in court, who are the court likely to believe, the parents alleged as abusers or the professional social worker without whom the justice system cannot operate. How much do the legal professionals cost, after-all it stands to reason the local authorities will have the best lawyers. If the parents are poor they have to make do with legal aid, or legal aid through Citizens Advice Bureau staff, many of whom will not even have GCSEs never mind a university education.

[des8]

Re: Child intervention; Right to family v Social workers

I doubt anyone denies we need, as a state, to protect the vulnerable.
Children are among the most vulnerable and should be protected by all of us.
That duty is passed to the state.

Whether we accept slapping as an appropriate method of discipline, or the liberal use of the cane, or just verbal admonishment is for society to decide.
How we regulate and police the choice is a different matter.

In the UK we have courts, child protection registers, social workers etc. A mixture which seems to have grown in the pragmatic way of much in the UK.
You ask about social workers competence and training and pose the conflicting outcomes that can occur: children falling through the net Vs unfairly criminalised parents etc.
I think we can all see the problems ........... Do you have an alternative solution?

[Kati]

Re: Child intervention; Right to family v Social workers

Kati
Your ordeal sounds truly horrifying. What gives anyone the right to make judgements without at least investigating the circumstances. I would have thought that being in a refuge and moving into a council house many miles form an abusive partner would be a good indication that you were serious about getting away.

II remember there were several cases reported where social services took action that was later rightly reversed by the courts and many families were affected.

Unfortuneately social workers have have been the victims of cuts and front line social workers now tend to be young, inexperienced , overworked and u dear supported.They are sometimes damned if they do and damned if they don't. I would not want to be a children's social worker for any money.

Thanks Julie

I kept my sons (they're now 15 and 16) and have had near enough no contact with their biological father since. SS contact (for me) stopped years ago apart from one 'blip' I'm now a mum again (she's 2 1/2 and as boisterous as they come :lol but because my boys had been on the CP register when they were young the hospital informed SS that I was pregnant (apparently it's a legal requirement :noidea. I had one visit ... a 'just out of training' youngster who tried to tell me that wanting to have a home-birth was dangerous. I sent her away with a full ream of pages/research to the contrary and got a polite note a month later basically saying "OK you're right". They closed the file

Don't get me wrong ... there are LOTS of good Social Workers. Those that really care about protecting the children while at the same time helping the families. I've met a few in my time (mainly through helping other parents to understand their rights/obligations etc... I volunteered as an advisor in a homeless shelter for a while and had a couple of run-ins with SWs who thought they were above the law :lol. The Family Rights Group (http://www.frg.org.uk) is a great source of info if you want to learn :nod: xx

[Openlaw15]

Re: Child intervention; Right to family v Social workers

I doubt anyone denies we need, as a state, to protect the vulnerable.
Children are among the most vulnerable and should be protected by all of us.
That duty is passed to the state.

Whether we accept slapping as an appropriate method of discipline, or the liberal use of the cane, or just verbal admonishment is for society to decide.
How we regulate and police the choice is a different matter.

In the UK we have courts, child protection registers, social workers etc. A mixture which seems to have grown in the pragmatic way of much in the UK.
You ask about social workers competence and training and pose the conflicting outcomes that can occur: children falling through the net Vs unfairly criminalised parents etc.
I think we can all see the problems ........... Do you have an alternative solution?

The Victorian Professor of Public Law, A V Dicey, suggested a system comprising adequate 'checks and balances.' Well, yes a map of sorts. "If X situation applies, ie 'is there a genuine threat, is it proportionate', if yes follow 'Y direction. Not so much about government bureaucracy/ red tape, ie arbitrary targets. If not, case should go through the disposal procedure. I suppose the question is what materials/ guidance social workers have presently.

In the USA, there are a stronger sanctions and guidelines for the professionals, notwithstanding will lose their licence and be liable for tort breaches, as I understand it. In the USA, there are constitutional rights which seemingly offer more of a 'checks and balance' than the UK currently has. In some ways, the UK is like third world country, where at one time it literally led the world, started common law systems, but then the USA evolved into a state with far better legal protections. In theory anyway, there are these protections. The downside of the US is obvious, as per the recent media reported instances. However, there are adequate legal systems in practice, but again, the USA has different economy to the UK in that there are hierarchies within the law industry, some even require lawyers for sick benefit claims.

[Kati]

Re: Child intervention; Right to family v Social workers

How does the average person cope in this very personal situation when he or she is essentially fighting the entire state with all its resources, pressures. We have in camera (secret) family courts, a court system of job for the boys, ie all the professionals are well paid. What about the family, can they ever trust people again? Brilliant that you were put with a more fair, decent human being/ social worker. Social worker, even the term suggest that they should be helping society, not being on a power trip. What about when they do get in wrong in the sense that they have abused their powers? Would parents feel competent to complain, or would they be at that point, nervous wrecks and sceptic of the entire public system?

Quite a few don't cope OL ... I just happen to be a bit more pugnacious than most I found it is better (as it is with the DWP too) to know the rules/regulations beforehand, or asap after the fact. With proof and a good argument not much is out of reach!

I wonder how many there are of these type? When she threatened to have your kids removed in what was modern time really: 2001, was she disciplined by the manager? Did she keep her job, or was she given more training? Is training required or should be they be forced out of the job?

IMO ... too many :sad:
If more SW's had children of their own ... or spent time working with those they are supposed to help BEFORE being pushed in at the deep end they would be able to help a family from first-handexperience. Knowing what to do is (again IMO) great, but if you are just spouting words/phrases that you learnt from a text book or course without experience dealing with it yourself it is not enough. SW's just out of college/uni with no first-hand knowledge need a mentor, a chance to shadow one of the more qualified SW without the pressure of 'getting it right first time' ... unfortunately in our society there doesn't seem to be the chance to do that

[Crazy council]

Re: Child intervention; Right to family v Social workers

To judge any parent at any stage with there kids, a social worker should have had there own kids grown up. you can have all the training in the world, but nothing tops what you learn yourself as a parent

My council really is the low mark ( Ian Huntley mess ) and that has made it harder for them to get fully qualified and time served social workers. Also, social systems go from not reacting to over reacting in a cycle. Legal teams at council protect there workers regardless, and complaint systems take that long and that much effort that hardly anyone pursues complaints fully.

I think that in general, the systems works, if your prepared to fight your corner, but that many people feel overwhelmed at the time, dealing with both the situation that has lead to involvement of the social services, and the way you have to defend yourself against them, if there not balanced or have over reacted. Add to that, social workers under pressure or scared to make a mistake. You end up with a barely functioning system.

[JulieM]

Re: Child intervention; Right to family v Social workers

To what extent can we blame the SW or do we blame the system for allowing inexperienced kids to have un supervised heavy caseloads

[Kati]

Re: Child intervention; Right to family v Social workers

To what extent can we blame the SW or do we blame the system for allowing inexperienced kids to have un supervised heavy caseloads

Personally ... I'd blame both! If it wasn't for the system we wouldn't NEED inexperienced youngsters pretending to be in charge, but it should be a point of honour as a SW to ensure you do (and learn) everything you need to do the job.

Short cuts should not be tolerated in such a high-risk environment where whole families are in danger of being ripped apart.