Child custody dispute

[Openlaw15]

Re: Child custody dispute

I think the last hearing was a fact finding hearing. The reason I'm still being accused of emotional abuse is because nothing positive has been done with me since the first hearing. I think because my ex started proceedings, social services have just washed their hands of helping me in any way. I think they're waiting for the outcome before they give me any help with her. On the arrangement order, it states that I must not abuse my daughter in anyway. It's like CAFCASS will be watching me for those 9 days to assess our relationship. I believe they're going to be looking for their facts during these 9 days.

Daisy, the Fact Finding Hearing (paragraph 28,12J, Practice Direction, Family Procedure Rules (para. 28, 12J, PD, FPR)) was where you really needed legal representation the most. Your solicitor could have pulled the social worker's section 37 apart, and if there were some issues in CAFCASS' section 7's report, dealt with them too: paragraph 28. It was your chance to say you did not domestically abuse your 12 year old daughter. Now the court by the words/ terms 'must not abuse my daughter in anyway' on the Child Arrangement Order seemingly indicates that they didn't believe you (but you had no legal representation). Have they mentioned supervised contact/ visitation for you or not?

"paragraph 28

While ensuring that the Allegations are properly put and responded to, the fact-finding hearing can be an inquisitorial (or investigative) process, which at all times must protect the interests of all involved. At the fact-finding hearing –

•Each party can be asked to identify what questions they wish to ask of the other party, and to set out or confirm in sworn evidence their version of the disputed key facts.

•The judge or lay justices should be prepared where necessary and appropriate to conduct the questioning of the witnesses on behalf of the parties, focusing on the key issues in the case."

Do you see why you need a lawyer. This is effectively saying, before the fact finding hearing the lawyers would already in advance have chosen the questions and the particular disputes that were benefit to the parties, ie you. Instead all of this was likely done before you even got to the Fact Finding Hearing. So any defences you might have had are too late. Your lawyer could have said stuff like, 'leading question' could counsel (lawyers) please stop doing this and rephrase his or her question. What is a leading question and what is a Fair question? A fair question is 'Daisy, 'tell us what happened during these alleged domestic abuse events.' Leading question: Daisy, isn't it fair to say that your domestic abuse on your daughter makes you unfit to raise her?' The difference is that the first question assumes no 'domestic abuse' but the second question does. This hearing is for allegations of abuse, so at this point it wouldn't be proven as abuse. This is called legal practice.

[Daisyberwick]

Re: Child custody dispute

I think the last hearing was a fact finding hearing. The reason I'm still being accused of emotional abuse is because nothing positive has been done with me since the first hearing. I think because my ex started proceedings, social services have just washed their hands of helping me in any way. I think they're waiting for the outcome before they give me any help with her. On the arrangement order, it states that I must not abuse my daughter in anyway. It's like CAFCASS will be watching me for those 9 days to assess our relationship. I believe they're going to be looking for their facts during these 9 days.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Child custody dispute

This is all so confusing to me lol. I wanted to appeal the last 11 days of the school holidays that my daughter will be with her dad, but I've decided against that now. She has survived 13 days with him and while she didn't like it, I doubt that it's hurt her. Rather than rock the boat with the judge, I'm going to 'finish my sentance' ...
My daughter will get the chance to speak to the judge just before the case gets heard on 30th and I will get a chance to speak with the court guardian while my daughter is with me next week. I have come to the conclusion that CAFCASS work separately from social services and while I feel that social services are against me, CAFCASS are not entirely against me. Untill now, I thought my ex had been part of the discussion between my daughter and CAFCASS, but I've realised, he was not in the room, so has no idea how strongly she feels. This worried me.

Daisy have you had a Fact Finding hearing about 'domestic abuse' or not? Are the social services still saying you're 'emotionally abusing' or other types of domestic abuse towards M (your daughter)?

[Diana M]

Re: Child custody dispute

I'm glad you're feeling more positive about all this.

Appealing a Judge's decision is tantamount to telling them they've made a mistake, so your approach (not to appeal) is wise tactically since you need that Judge onside right now.

Your daughter will be home tomorrow so try your best to act as if everything is fine and do all the things you'd normally do during the school hols.

Di

[Daisyberwick]

Re: Child custody dispute

This is all so confusing to me lol. I wanted to appeal the last 11 days of the school holidays that my daughter will be with her dad, but I've decided against that now. She has survived 13 days with him and while she didn't like it, I doubt that it's hurt her. Rather than rock the boat with the judge, I'm going to 'finish my sentance' ...
My daughter will get the chance to speak to the judge just before the case gets heard on 30th and I will get a chance to speak with the court guardian while my daughter is with me next week. I have come to the conclusion that CAFCASS work separately from social services and while I feel that social services are against me, CAFCASS are not entirely against me. Untill now, I thought my ex had been part of the discussion between my daughter and CAFCASS, but I've realised, he was not in the room, so has no idea how strongly she feels. This worried me.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Child custody dispute

@Openlaw15 Thats cheeky Also, you filling up this poor posters thread, arguing with people or telling them there wrong, or your opinions more qualified,,,, maybe try sticking to helping the poster in an understandable way.. not everyone shouts about there qualifications,,

Where is the evidence that 'I' said am more qualified to answer Daisy's situation? You said I was wrong. I said under family procedure rules practice directions (FPR PD) that Daisy is required to have a fair hearing. I never said I was more qualified. I am citing procedure, not my opinion.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Child custody dispute

@Openlaw15 Thats cheeky Also, you filling up this poor posters thread, arguing with people or telling them there wrong, or your opinions more qualified,,,, maybe try sticking to helping the poster in an understandable way.. not everyone shouts about there qualifications,,

No CC, I never said anyone was wrong I just saw the words 'Authorised Representative' in a prominent green - clearly intended as exception - so I naturally asked Di if she were a solicitor or barrister.

[Crazy council]

Re: Child custody dispute

Di, are you a qualified solicitor or barrister?

@Openlaw15 Thats cheeky Also, you filling up this poor posters thread, arguing with people or telling them there wrong, or your opinions more qualified,,,, maybe try sticking to helping the poster in an understandable way.. not everyone shouts about there qualifications,,

[Openlaw15]

Re: Child custody dispute

Well I have a BAFTA for a documentary I made on the homeless. I learned more about housing law filming that than I would have learned reading about it as part of a law degree.

I didn't say legal procedure was hard to learn, I said there's a skill to using it (once learned) which you won't find in any text book.

How does any of this help Daisy keep hold of her daughter?

Di

I was actually quoting relevant family procedure rules for Daisy before the topic went off on a tangent. Congratulations on your BAFTA by the way, I mean that sincerely.

- - - Updated - - -

Well I have a BAFTA for a documentary I made on the homeless. I learned more about housing law filming that than I would have learned reading about it as part of a law degree.

I didn't say legal procedure was hard to learn, I said there's a skill to using it (once learned) which you won't find in any text book.

How does any of this help Daisy keep hold of her daughter?

Di

Actually, I have learnt far more since doing law. I have learnt lots from this website actually, and from you guys. I knew of procedure but I didn't actually know procedure at all.

- - - Updated - - -

Well I have a BAFTA for a documentary I made on the homeless. I learned more about housing law filming that than I would have learned reading about it as part of a law degree.

I didn't say legal procedure was hard to learn, I said there's a skill to using it (once learned) which you won't find in any text book.

How does any of this help Daisy keep hold of her daughter?

Di

You are obviously a very caring lady with a good heart.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Child custody dispute

If you think learning legal procedure is far easier than doing a law degree then you obviously haven't understood the way legal procedure works. It's all about tactics and which bits of legal procedure to use and when to use it and (more importantly) when not to #tactics #timing

The only thing you have in common with a practicing lawyer is your love of arguing

Di

Di, are you a qualified solicitor or barrister?

[Diana M]

Re: Child custody dispute

No, I argue because I can 'think' of arguments based on points of law.. because I studied a law degree. If procedure was so hard, they wouldn't let legal executives practice it at level 3. Law degree is study at level 6.

Well I have a BAFTA for a documentary I made on the homeless. I learned more about housing law filming that than I would have learned reading about it as part of a law degree.

I didn't say legal procedure was hard to learn, I said there's a skill to using it (once learned) which you won't find in any text book.

How does any of this help Daisy keep hold of her daughter?

Di

[Openlaw15]

Re: Child custody dispute

If you think learning legal procedure is far easier than doing a law degree then you obviously haven't understood the way legal procedure works. It's all about tactics and which bits of legal procedure to use and when to use it #tactics #timing

The only thing you have in common with a practicing lawyer is your love of arguing

Di

No, I argue because I can 'think' of arguments based on points of law.. because I studied a law degree. If procedure was so hard, they wouldn't let legal executives practice it at level 3. Law degree is study at level 6.

[Diana M]

Re: Child custody dispute

but procedure is far more easier than doing the law degree. I have never formally studied procedure but am navigating my way through it rather easily.

If you think learning legal procedure is far easier than doing a law degree then you obviously haven't understood the way legal procedure works. It's all about tactics and which bits of legal procedure to use and when to use it and (more importantly) when not to #tactics #timing

The only thing you have in common with a practicing lawyer is your love of arguing

Di

[Openlaw15]

Re: Child custody dispute

There's a big difference between the two

Di

Yes I know... but procedure is far more easier than doing the law degree. I have never formally studied procedure but am navigating my way through it rather easily.

[Diana M]

Re: Child custody dispute

I studied a law degree, not legal procedure.

There's a big difference between the two

Di