Advice needed on taking children abroad after break up/divorce.

[ballymoss]

Hello,

Could anyone point me in the direction of advice please. My new partner and I are planning on taking her children (from a broken down marriage) and my child to Greece in late August. A spur of the moment thing, and we have booked it already (which may have been unwise in hidsight). Now there is no problem with my ex partner, we have an amicable relationship and both care deeply for our child should any bitterness creep in between us.

My partners soon to be ex husband whilst he is given weekly access to his children is not playing nicely. So much so that he has not paid a penny in maintainance since he was removed from the house by police having assaulted my partner. We have today been advised we need to write to him to gain permission to take them abroad. This permission will not be forthcoming. He is getting very close to losing access due to his vile behaviour. What is the likelihood of the family court granting permission to take them away for their first holiday in years, and best way of enforcing their decision (I wouldn't put it past him to kidnap the kids). Any advice gratefully received.

Thankyou.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Advice needed on taking children abroad after break up/divorce.

Hello,

Could anyone point me in the direction of advice please. My new partner and I are planning on taking her children (from a broken down marriage) and my child to Greece in late August. A spur of the moment thing, and we have booked it already (which may have been unwise in hidsight). Now there is no problem with my ex partner, we have an amicable relationship and both care deeply for our child should any bitterness creep in between us.

My partners soon to be ex husband whilst he is given weekly access to his children is not playing nicely. So much so that he has not paid a penny in maintainance since he was removed from the house by police having assaulted my partner. We have today been advised we need to write to him to gain permission to take them abroad. This permission will not be forthcoming. He is getting very close to losing access due to his vile behaviour. What is the likelihood of the family court granting permission to take them away for their first holiday in years, and best way of enforcing their decision (I wouldn't put it past him to kidnap the kids). Any advice gratefully received.

Thankyou.

Update:

NB: it would seems more so because he has left the marital home that he requires the right of your partner than the other way around. The law generally permits freedom without the express consent of the other parent, with some exceptions, including change of name, adoptions etc. I can find nothing on requiring consent to go on holiday. The rule is everything reasonable is ok unless there is a court order to the contrary.


Advised you'll need his permission by whom? As the couple are still married the custody issue has not been dealt with. From what you say it seems as the other parent is a threat your partner is likely to get legal and physical (actual) custody for the children. Her then ex will likely have limited contact and limited rights. As far's am aware a legal custodial parent or guardian has the right to take his or children on holiday without the permission of the other legal parent or guardian's permission, especially where one of the legal parents is no longer living in the marital (family) home owing to domestic abuse. The children belong to them both so each has the legal right currently. Does your partner have a domestic protection order in place? if so, the would be ex's right would be limited already. The unreasonable parent in the circumstances you provide could get a court order to stop the children going abroad if they believe you were a threat potentially. Other than that I am not aware of any law or case law where a parent needs the express permission to take their own children on holiday. If it were something dangerous I could see a natural objection by the custody parent but in the situation you relate I cannot see there being a problem. It would have been helpful had your partner already got a restraining (protection) order against her dangerous ex as this would have made things much easier.

[ballymoss]

Re: Advice needed on taking children abroad after break up/divorce.

Hi many thanks. The divorce is not final, counselling has failed to reach a satisfactory conclusion on any financial settlement. Not only has he failed to provide financial support for his children such as maintenance, clothing, glasses etc, he has also demanded she pay 50% of his credit card and car loan. Unreasonable doesnt even come close. Her solicitor has today advised that she need to seek his permission to take them out of the country. Sadly my partner is intimidated by his behaviour, he is now convicted of battery against her.

As he is a bully and a control freak, he will not grant permission. I suggested we get replacement birth certificates and passports and just go without telling him. I am however wary of possible charges of child abduction. The children are 10 and 16.

Thanks.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Advice needed on taking children abroad after break up/divorce.

Hi many thanks. The divorce is not final, counselling has failed to reach a satisfactory conclusion on any financial settlement. Not only has he failed to provide financial support for his children such as maintenance, clothing, glasses etc, he has also demanded she pay 50% of his credit card and car loan. Unreasonable doesnt even come close. Her solicitor has today advised that she need to seek his permission to take them out of the country. Sadly my partner is intimidated by his behaviour, he is now convicted of battery against her.

As he is a bully and a control freak, he will not grant permission. I suggested we get replacement birth certificates and passports and just go without telling him. I am however wary of possible charges of child abduction. The children are 10 and 16.

Thanks.

There is a difference between going on holiday and taking out of the country for residence purposes. I assumed it was just for a holiday to Greece.

[des8]

Re: Advice needed on taking children abroad after break up/divorce.

If you cannot obtain permission from the other person who has parental responsibility, you can obtain permission from court

https://www.gov.uk/permission-take-child-abroad

[Kati]

Re: Advice needed on taking children abroad after break up/divorce.

[MENTION=8640]leclerc[/MENTION] might be able to advise xx

[ballymoss]

Re: Advice needed on taking children abroad after break up/divorce.

There is a difference between going on holiday and taking out of the country for residence purposes. I assumed it was just for a holiday to Greece.

It is just a holiday to Greece. 10 nights in a villa, return flights etc paid for.

[ballymoss]

Re: Advice needed on taking children abroad after break up/divorce.

It is just a holiday to Greece. 10 nights in a villa, return flights etc paid for.

Further to this, she has emailed him and his response was they can go. As long as I wasn't going too, "see you in family court". Much as expected, after all I did have him dragged out of the family home at 7am one Sunday morning after he assaulted her. Nasty bit of work sadly, and very intimidating. I think she is suitably riled now though and is out for blood.

[leclerc]

Re: Advice needed on taking children abroad after break up/divorce.

If you cannot obtain permission from the other person who has parental responsibility, you can obtain permission from court

https://www.gov.uk/permission-take-child-abroad

If there is no residential order in place then as Des8 has said, you need the permission from the soon to be ex partner as he has parental responsibility.

OpenLaw15, we do not agree on this one I'm afraid and I think Foster/Rutherford v. DPP (2004) is the case law we might be looking at.

And Child Abduction Act 1984,

[ballymoss]

Re: Advice needed on taking children abroad after break up/divorce.

If there is no residential order in place then as Des8 has said, you need the permission from the soon to be ex partner as he has parental responsibility.

OpenLaw15, we do not agree on this one I'm afraid and I think Foster/Rutherford v. DPP (2004) is the case law we might be looking at.

And Child Abduction Act 1984,

This would be my understanding. Off to the court shortly to collect the forms etc and gain advice on how best to fill them in. Many thanks to all for your help on this matter.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Advice needed on taking children abroad after break up/divorce.

This would be my understanding. Off to the court shortly to collect the forms etc and gain advice on how best to fill them in. Many thanks to all for your help on this matter.

It's generally a criminal offence to take a child abroad without the consent of both parents: section 1 (1), Child Abduction Act 1984. Defence to taking a child without consent: s.1 (5 (c)), Child Abduction Act 1984.

"(5) A person does not commit an offence under this section by doing anything without the consent of another person whose consent is required under the foregoing provisions if—(a)he does it in the belief that the other person—
(i)has consented; or
(ii)would consent if he was aware of all the relevant circumstances; or
(b) he has taken all reasonable steps to communicate with the other person but has been unable to communicate with him; or
(c)
the other person has unreasonably refused to consent,"

and the defence for taking child abroad without said consent will fail in the following circumstances.

"Subsection (5)(c) above does not apply if—
(a)the person who refused to consent is a person—
(i)in whose favour there is a residence order in force with respect to the child; or
(ii)who has custody of the child; or
(b)the person taking or sending the child out of the United Kingdom is, by so acting, in breach of an order made by a court in the United Kingdom.]

(6)Where, in proceedings for an offence under this section, there is sufficent evidence to raise an issue as to the application of subsection (5) above, it shall be for the prosecution to prove that that subsection does not apply.

There is a material defence to taking a child abroad without consent, as above. This defence will be available where consent by the other parents was endeavoured but 'unreasonably refused: section 1 (5(c), Child Abduction Act 1984

Family law:

The op requires a 'specific issue order' from the court if consent is not given and the test will be the welfare interest of the children, ie a trip to Greece is likely to be in their interest as to not go to Greece would be to deprive them of a holiday abroad to see and observe the different and diverse cultures that Greece has to offer, notwithstanding having fun in the sun, as it were.

In my view, on the OP's facts there is a defence to taking the children to Greece as the other parent has unreasonable refused: section 1 (5 (c)), Child Abduction Act 1984.

[des8]

Re: Advice needed on taking children abroad after break up/divorce.

There might be a defence, but pragmatically if the OP's partner takes the children to Greece with OP in contravention of the ex partner's conditional permission, there could be problems.
Ex partner could make an accusation of abduction. It might be false, but the subsequent investigation by Greek police would be likely to put a bit of a dampener on the holiday.
I'd clear it through the courts first!

[ballymoss]

Re: Advice needed on taking children abroad after break up/divorce.

Well it's all going pear shaped now. Since he's flatly refused to honour his verbal agreement of February 2015 to provide maintainance payments of £300 per month I advised her to get in touch with the CSA. He's now recieved a letter (sadly her solicitor seems happy to just coast, and I don't have confidence in her) from the CSA and is demanding a DNA test. Not sure if he thinks he's partaking in the Jeremy Vile show but it just shows how warped and nasty he is. Hopefully her and myself can make it through this, but he's certainly making things as nasty as he can.

If there's a lawyer in the Southampton area who fancies themselves as a bit of a Rottweiler to take on this clown and put him in his place please drop me a line.

[des8]

Re: Advice needed on taking children abroad after break up/divorce.

Until officially declared otherwise, a man is deemed to be a child’s legal father if he is married to the mother at the time of the child’s birth, or if his name is registered on the child’s birth certificate.
Even if a man disputes paternity he will have to pay child maintenance until DNA tests prove otherwise. The alleged father will initially have to pay for a DNA test (arranged by the CSA) and continue to pay maintenance, all of which will be refunded if the paternity test comes back negative.

IMO (but never having been in this awful type of situation) the best course of action is to follow CSA's directions, and let ex vent his spleen on them.

[Kati]

Re: Advice needed on taking children abroad after break up/divorce.

If there's a lawyer in the Southampton area who fancies themselves as a bit of a Rottweiler to take on this clown and put him in his place please drop me a line.

You might find someone on our sister site LBcompare

I do hope that you manage to sort this out xx