Will it be years until i see my daughter again?

[t135t0]

Re: Will it be years until i see my daughter again?

Hi thank you for the quick reply,

The contact centre coordinator is our go between, i did text her the other day to try and resolve it outside of court and asked her to foreward the text on to the mother but i had no reply at all.

When myself and the mother were talking amicably i did write her a letter 2 months ago asking her to take my 2 weekly visits away from the contact centre as id been attending there since nov 15th 2014, and i thought being there has served its purpose etc, and she never replied to that, so when things were amicable and great and i was still getting no movement i have zero chance of it now.

I can only go back to court, so what shall i apply for, shall i go down the enforcement route??.. from what i hear they are not very successful or shall i scrap the variation and just got for a standard c100 form and start it all from fresh??...but that now means i have to attend mediation again, plus will the whole process start from scratch where you have direction hearings and other short hearings amounting to another 5/6 months in court??...where as a variation can get resolved on the day??

[MissFM]

Re: Will it be years until i see my daughter again?

Hi t135t0 ,

You might find Coram Law's free advice line helpful, including on precedent and due process: Child Law Advice Service 0300 330 5480

Their website also has some very clear and helpful resources:

http://www.childrenslegalcentre.com/...=child_contact

Particularly the flow charts on this PDF, outlining the various courses of action recommended by the courts:

http://www.childrenslegalcentre.com/...%20Contact.pdf

I do find myself in complete agreement with @stevemLS on all his advice above, which seems to me to be in line with the directives of the Family Law Courts - which will always prefer mediation and conciliation over legal action, the needs of the child being the only consideration. They won't be "awarding" contact according to whether they think you deserve it, or withdrawing it as a punishment for bad behaviour - they see contact with both parents as the child's right.

Also, on the matter of contempt:

What if a parent does not comply with the order?
A court order is legally binding. Failure to comply with the court order amounts to contempt of court and a person can, as
a last resort, be committed to prison for contempt.
A parent cannot be held in contempt though simply for failing to take
up the contact given.

(from http://www.childrenslegalcentre.com/...es/Contact.pdf)

A couple of questions:
- You mention in your first post that the mother " made statements that were not true and got child protection involved." - What is that about?

- Did you, at any point during the rant you describe above, make any threats or statements that could be perceived as threats against anyone involved? (Sorry, have to ask that, as it would have a bearing).

- is your contact centre through the NACCC?

Hope you're bearing up - as you can see, we are rooting for you x

[stevemLS]

Re: Will it be years until i see my daughter again?

Hi thank you for the quick reply,

The contact centre coordinator is our go between, i did text her the other day to try and resolve it outside of court and asked her to foreward the text on to the mother but i had no reply at all.

When myself and the mother were talking amicably i did write her a letter 2 months ago asking her to take my 2 weekly visits away from the contact centre as id been attending there since nov 15th 2014, and i thought being there has served its purpose etc, and she never replied to that, so when things were amicable and great and i was still getting no movement i have zero chance of it now.

I can only go back to court, so what shall i apply for, shall i go down the enforcement route??.. from what i hear they are not very successful or shall i scrap the variation and just got for a standard c100 form and start it all from fresh??...but that now means i have to attend mediation again, plus will the whole process start from scratch where you have direction hearings and other short hearings amounting to another 5/6 months in court??...where as a variation can get resolved on the day??

Sorry, I missed this one.

Write your letter, send it in a sealed envelope to the contact centre coordinator with a covering note asking him/her to forward it.

It is evidence of your remorse.

For me, I would go for enforcement.

As I have said a couple of times, I think it would be a mistake to apply for a completely new Order. The first thing the Court will say is, but we made an Order less than a year ago, why are you wasting our time.

My personal view is that you could offer her a temporary reduction in frequency for say 3 months, to show that you can be trusted, but once a fortnight as it is, is not a lot.

Miss FM has found some brilliant looking resources, have a chat with that advice line (though they probably will, of course, try and get you in as a client)

[t135t0]

Re: Will it be years until i see my daughter again?

Hi again and thank you both so much for the advice and links.

Firstly i want to clear up why child protection got involved, it was because of the amount of texts i was sending her and she was claiming emotional domestic violence, (she also got legal aid because of this) so she rang child protection and obviously they have to chase it up. So they rang me, we had a quick chat and i never heard from them again, they probably got in touch because it was procedure. The statements that were not true were to the police, i was controlling her, she had to run away from me at times etc etc..all crap the court didnt listen to, she also accused me of physical violence as it was in the cafcass report, but when the next court date came up after the report she had retracted that claim in front of the judge.i think her solicitor said unless you can prove he physically hurt you, you cant get into alot of trouble if you were found out to be lying)..just general crap like that.

As for threats i did get really nasty yes, and i did threaten her brother, this is what i mean i have dug myself a huge huge hole. Alot of the stuff i said can be seen as threats. Like i said im going to be totally honest here, i never outright threatened anybody but it does look bad and it can be perceived as im not to be trusted. Its not the truth at all, id never hurt any of them, i just lost it for a few hours 12 days ago

Yes the centre is a proper NACCC place, i am welcome back there as soon as its sorted tho.

[t135t0]

Re: Will it be years until i see my daughter again?

ill go for an enforcement then..

I took your advice and sent this message to her brother earlier tonight:

Hi,Do you think Natasha will resolve this outside of court at all??If i seek counselling and go on anger management courses and produce certificates to prove it and maybe start contact up again after xmas??I don't Mind dropping my visits to once a month for the first 6 months after new year then we can discuss upping them when im back on track?? I wont mention leaving the centre until she decides im ready.Sorry to message you but i dont have Natashas address to write her a letter suggesting my requests Cheers

He replied with:

Maybe if you can prove yourself then she might


But how do i know he even relayed the msg to her, how do i know she will stick to it...im confused.com now!!

I could wait till jan and get ****ed over, but now i have evidence i tried

[stevemLS]

Re: Will it be years until i see my daughter again?

OK, I wouldn't worry about the safeguarding team's involvement then. You are right, once a complaint or allegation has been made, they have to follow it up.

As for the texts, as I've already said, just wrap it all up and characterise it as I have previously suggested. People are human and make mistakes. A judge said to me the other week after I apologised and explained that something wasn't quite ready because I'd been off work for a few days due to a very close family bereavement "Life happens, you have my condolences Mr StevemLS" - I was expecting to get a proper dressing down and this particular judge is not known for her sunny disposition! Judges are human too.

All the judge will be interested in, as Miss FM said, is the interests of your daughter and whether this incidents suggest you present any sort of risk to her.

[MissFM]

Re: Will it be years until i see my daughter again?

One thing that is niggling me is that I don't think your ex should be encouraged to think that she is free to withdraw contact between you and your daughter, or indeed to override the court order - which as already discussed is not a reward or punishment for either parent, but the child's right.

Whilst I absolutely agree you should write the letter (c/o the contact centre intermediary as Steve suggests) with your abject apology for hurt caused, your ex does need to realise that the contact is for her daughter's sake, not yours or hers, and has been ordered by the court to that end - your little girl is entitled to see her Dad and shouldn't be denied that contact. A fortnight is a very long time for a little one - a month an eternity.

I'm just uneasy about reducing the contact at all, really - you can apologise unreservedly for the behaviour towards the ex without conceding that she can use contact with the child as negotiable - if you see what I mean x

[stevemLS]

Re: Will it be years until i see my daughter again?

I think you should STOP sending text messages to anyone connected with her for now at least.

That is what is at the root of all this trouble.

I know it is how people communicate for now, but just stop.

Did you see my suggestion about writing via the contact centre?

[stevemLS]

Re: Will it be years until i see my daughter again?

The other thing that has just occurred to me is, how many, if any, contacts have you actually missed now given that this incident was only 12 days ago?

You will need evidence to support your application for enforcement and you won't be able to do that on the basis of 1 or 2 missed sessions.

As you yourself have said, if she has reasonable cause to miss a session then that will not be contempt.

Presumably you have texts that say never again etc.

You don't want to go to the expense and stress of a premature application and her brother's response at least suggests there is hope of getting all this sorted. Only you know them but is it likely he would have responded like that without speaking to her?

I don't do Family law but I am going to a conference next week which will be crammed with them, with your permission I might mention these circumstances to one that I know does a lot of family work and see what she thinks?

[t135t0]

Re: Will it be years until i see my daughter again?

Hi,

This saturday will be my 2nd session i have missed at the centre but i cant count the first one as i cancelled that one in my outburst, so technically it will be this saturday as my first missed session. I dont have texts off her saying never again, but the contact centre coordinator sent a text to me saying she wont be attending the centre anymore.

I did see both of your suggestions about writing via the contact centre but i have sent the text now so she knows my suggestions, i did contact the centre coordinator 3 days ago but she didnt reply, my only trouble is will she stick to it in jan??...if she screws me over then thats another 3 months wasted and hope destroyed.

Yes certainly explain the circumstances to people and give me feedback if poss

[stevemLS]

Re: Will it be years until i see my daughter again?

OK - afraid in my view it is far too soon to think about enforcement action, she has not breached any Order yet.

You have, effectively, now put yourself in the position where you have released her from any obligation until after Christmas and then it all starts again, which isn't ideal but there we are. The problem is that you won't know if she is going to "screw you over" until after Christmas and enforcement action won't be possible until there has been multiple breaches so you are right, it will be very difficult for you.

I was thinking you could be a bit more "flowery" and grovelling in a letter than you can be in a text message. I suggested the types of things you might think about saying to her. I did have a thought that it might extend to 3 or 4 pages.

I am still keen on the idea of a letter, is there any chance you could speak (ie not text) to the centre coordinator, explain (in broad terms only) what has happened, express your remorse and ask whether he or she would kindly forward a letter? I do think you should be trying to do whatever you can by way of preparatory work now and as I said earlier, a prompt grovel is better.

[MissFM]

Re: Will it be years until i see my daughter again?

A text to someone else isn't the same as a personal, considered, sealed letter addressed to the mother herself. Put it in another envelope addressed to the go-between, with a covering letter requesting them to pass it on and to please acknowledge that they have done so. Send it to be signed for.

I honestly think such a letter would be both more appropriate and more effective. It would also carry more weight in any future legal preoceedings, especially if you include your suggested proposals for contact arrangements and ask for her views.

Keep a copy.

Don't know how to pursuade you x

Edit: Crossed with Steve, with whom I heartily agree!x

[t135t0]

Re: Will it be years until i see my daughter again?

Hi,

Its difficult because you dont know the mother the way i do and how stubborn she is, i really dont think any sort of letter will change a thing. As i said earlier i sent a letter 2 months ago when things were hunky dory asking to leave the centre as i had been there for 8 months already and she totally ignored it and didnt wanna know, i sent a letter to her and her solicitor of the time and it made no difference.

I do really appreciate all the messages and concern it has been fab but as you can see i really dont want to go down the letter route as it will really make no difference or make things go any faster.

What i will say is if i wait till after xmas about making an enforcement order wont the judge ask why i have waited so long to do anything about it??

[stevemLS]

Re: Will it be years until i see my daughter again?

I took your advice and sent this message to her brother earlier tonight:

Hi,Do you think Natasha will resolve this outside of court at all??If i seek counselling and go on anger management courses and produce certificates to prove it and maybe start contact up again after xmas??I don't Mind dropping my visits to once a month for the first 6 months after new year then we can discuss upping them when im back on track?? I wont mention leaving the centre until she decides im ready.Sorry to message you but i dont have Natashas address to write her a letter suggesting my requests Cheers

He replied with:

Maybe if you can prove yourself then she might

You have, effectively, now put yourself in the position where you have released her from any obligation until after Christmas and then it all starts again, which isn't ideal but there we are. The problem is that you won't know if she is going to "screw you over" until after Christmas and enforcement action won't be possible until there has been multiple breaches so you are right, it will be very difficult for you.

What i will say is if i wait till after xmas about making an enforcement order wont the judge ask why i have waited so long to do anything about it??

You are right, of course, none of us know her.

But you are missing at least part the point. Even if she screws it up and wipes her bum with it, it is still evidence of your intentions and remorse which will be enormously helpful to your case if and when you have to take court action.

As I said, this text that you sent effectively releases her from any obligation to turn up to any contact session between now and Christmas. That's why I said it wasn't ideal. Bluntly put you have rather shot yourself in the foot. Sorry. (And I don't think anyone here advised you to send it, I certainly didn't.)

However, it is done now.

If the judge asks why you have waited so long, it is so you could attend your counselling and do the anger management course before you attempted to resume contact. That would suggest you are being responsible.

[t135t0]

Re: Will it be years until i see my daughter again?

The text on fb wasnt or isnt an official attempt or document, i have spoken to the centre coordinator today and she is saying that she can get away with a few visits but after a certain amount if there has been no conflict bewtween myself and her she will be in breach, so yes you were right.

So my plan now is to write her that letter, send it to the coordinator, suggest i take the month of october out and resume visits in november of this year, in which it is my daughters birthday on the 14th of november so its like a good date to base things on. This will be a formal and official letter and not just a text sent via fb??

that sound about right?