Occupation order

[acsrjsk]

hi

I am married and my wife has hired a lawyer to send me a letter to move out 10th August otherwise there will be an occupation order to remove me from the property after this date. She is currrently on holiday and will only move back in after I moved out.

The claim is that I have been verbally and physically abusive for the past 5/6 months and she wanted a divorce. I hope people won't judge me on this forum for saying this - but I did swore at her by text a lot and 'tap' on the head 2 times. We have been married for 2 years.

We own the house together 50/50.

Question is:
What do you think should I do - should I move out or not? I really love her and just wanted make things up. I know I was in the wrong but please help me from legal perspective and only thing I can guarantee is that I won't abuse her. Should I get a lawyer on my own to stop getting a occupation order on me? We have a big house and perhaps I will stay in a differnt part of the house if she feels threatened?

Thank you.

[Amethyst]

Re: Occupation order

Your wife is entitled to apply for an occupation order as she owns half of the house. She may have applied for legal aid on the grounds of domestic abuse in order to engage her solicitor and apply for the occupation order. Has a non molestation order been mentioned?

If you wanted to fight against the occupation order then yes, speaking with your own solicitor would be a v. good idea. In a domestic violence case it is unlikely that sharing the house would be accepted.

An occupation order is a short term measure and the court will look at both of your incomes, housing needs ( I don't think there are any children so this may be equal footing) , how you (both) have behaved ( those texts will be evidence of your behavior ).

You could accept the request to leave the house with an agreement on the basis the house will be sold ( or put up for sale within x period )

[acsrjsk]

Re: Occupation order

Your wife is entitled to apply for an occupation order as she owns half of the house. She may have applied for legal aid on the grounds of domestic abuse in order to engage her solicitor and apply for the occupation order. Has a non molestation order been mentioned?

If you wanted to fight against the occupation order then yes, speaking with your own solicitor would be a v. good idea. In a domestic violence case it is unlikely that sharing the house would be accepted.

An occupation order is a short term measure and the court will look at both of your incomes, housing needs ( I don't think there are any children so this may be equal footing) , how you (both) have behaved ( those texts will be evidence of your behavior ).

You could accept the request to leave the house with an agreement on the basis the house will be sold ( or put up for sale within x period )

Hi there

Thanks for your reply.

I didn't get a solicitor involved but did move out voluntarirly and staying somewere so my wife could be left alone. Additionally I am getting professional help with my behaviour by enroling on a program to control my abusive personality (run by an organisation called Domestic Violence Intervention Program). It is a six month course and in additiona I am also undergoing counselling. Anything to make my relationship work really.

I was wondering if I do want to move back (say 3-4 months) in future and wife doesn't accept it - what is my legal right to go back into the house? (We don't have children and both are employed with good income).

Thank you

[acsrjsk]

Re: Occupation order

Hi there

Thanks for your reply.

I didn't get a solicitor involved but did move out voluntarirly and staying somewere so my wife could be left alone. Additionally I am getting professional help with my behaviour by enroling on a program to control my abusive personality (run by an organisation called Domestic Violence Intervention Program). It is a six month course and in additiona I am also undergoing counselling. Anything to make my relationship work really.

I was wondering if I do want to move back (say 3-4 months) in future and wife doesn't accept it - what is my legal right to go back into the house? (We don't have children and both are employed with good income).

Thank you

Can someone please advise?

[stevemLS]

Re: Occupation order

Has your wife commenced divorce proceedings?

If so, it would be much easier for her to get an Occupation Order rather than as a stand alone application.

Whilst it is excellent that you are trying to address your behaviour, those measures will be accepted as evidence of a previously abusive relationship.

Whilst in theory, of course as a joint owner, you would have the right to move back, in practice, to do so would only be feasible in my view by agreement with your wife.

[acsrjsk]

Re: Occupation order

Has your wife commenced divorce proceedings?

If so, it would be much easier for her to get an Occupation Order rather than as a stand alone application.

Whilst it is excellent that you are trying to address your behaviour, those measures will be accepted as evidence of a previously abusive relationship.

Whilst in theory, of course as a joint owner, you would have the right to move back, in practice, to do so would only be feasible in my view by agreement with your wife.

Thank you so much for replying to this.

I don't even know if she has started divorce proceedings and its all very quite. She is not even talking to me! I was told by her solicitor that she won't talk to me until further notice because that she is still upset.

Anyway thanks again.

[MissFM]

Re: Occupation order

Hi acsrjsk,

I can't add to the sound legal pointers you've been given above, but just wanted to reinforce the pragmatic view that it would be unrealistic to have any expectation of moving back in.

Amethyst's suggestion that you request that the house be sold and possessions divided would seem the most constructive option to pursue.

That's not to say that there's no hope at all that at some point in the future your relationship mightn't rekindle on a healthier footing - but in view of what's happened that would have to be on your wife's initiative and on her terms - certainly not something that you could force through legal means, and any attempt to do so would be catastrophically counterproductive IMO.

She will need to have absolute confidence that you will never try to force control upon her through violence of any sort and that can only come if you make it clear that you have absolute respect for her, in deed as well as word, and for her autonomy.

Making the divorce easy for her - putting her need to heal before all else - would demonstrate that you are determined to change and could present an opening to a return to an amicable relationship.

I hope your treatment and counselling go well for you, salute you for seeking appropriate help and wish you well. x

[acsrjsk]

Re: Occupation order

Hi acsrjsk,

I can't add to the sound legal pointers you've been given above, but just wanted to reinforce the pragmatic view that it would be unrealistic to have any expectation of moving back in.

Amethyst's suggestion that you request that the house be sold and possessions divided would seem the most constructive option to pursue.

That's not to say that there's no hope at all that at some point in the future your relationship mightn't rekindle on a healthier footing - but in view of what's happened that would have to be on your wife's initiative and on her terms - certainly not something that you could force through legal means, and any attempt to do so would be catastrophically counterproductive IMO.

She will need to have absolute confidence that you will never try to force control upon her through violence of any sort and that can only come if you make it clear that you have absolute respect for her, in deed as well as word, and for her autonomy.

Making the divorce easy for her - putting her need to heal before all else - would demonstrate that you are determined to change and could present an opening to a return to an amicable relationship.

I hope your treatment and counselling go well for you, salute you for seeking appropriate help and wish you well. x

Thank you so much.

[acsrjsk]

Re: Occupation order

Sorry just want to add - I am still in distressed situation at the moment and my mind one hand trying to reconcile and also trying to prepare for the worst (divorce proceedings). I don't think the divorce proceedings has started yet since I have not heard anything from her or her solicitors for about 3 weeks.

If and when we do discuss the finance matters, the main quesiton is about the property. The house is valued at over £500,000 according to Zoopla (increased in value) since we first bought.

We put just over £100000 for deposit and my share was over £30,000 and she put in the rest even though the house equity is 50/50. In addition to the deposit I covered the mortgate payments and other house house expenses for nearly 2 years. This was about £2000 a month (basically I gave her £2K a month for nearly 2 years and she managed the bills and she didn't have to incur much expense from her pocket for the household).

Is it right I have the following options:

1. Ask her to sell the house and divide the proceeds 50/50?
2. She can buy me out - after proper valuation - I can ask for £125,000 if Zoopla estimate is indeed correct?
3. Since she paid a higher deposit would she get more share of the house? although over the years I paid £2k a month?

Just also to say we bought the hosue before we got married. Its really hard for me to write this post since the crisis has gotten to this stage to even be thinking about financial split when I still love her.

Thank you.

[acsrjsk]

Re: Occupation order

sorry, can someone please advise me with this?

[MissFM]

Re: Occupation order

Hi acsrjsk,

Sorry, I do realise how very painful this must be for you.

I think your analysis is probably fair - although I'm not sure how you arrived at 125K (unless it's after the mortgage has been paid?)

I think in your shoes I would have a chat with a solicitor as a next step (make sure they're Resolution accredited - and while you're at it make sure your wife's is, too) www.resolution.org.uk/

You may get a free initial half hour just to explore your options and see whether you want to instruct that particular solicitor.

If it were me (and I'm not saying this is the right, or the only, thing to do) I think I would then write to the effect that you do not wish the marriage to end, that you love your wife & would do anything in your power to put things right but you also wish to make things as easy as possible for your wife to do as her needs dictate.

You could say that, if she can see no future in the marriage and is certain that she doesn't wish you to return to the marital home then it would be best sold and best for both of you if this were done quickly.

You could then put forward your thoughts on a fair division of equity and invite her thoughts and proposals.

Obviously, it would be best to write through the solicitor (subject to your own legal advice) and you could include a more personal (sealed) message for your wife if you wished.

One thing you both need to avoid is using solicitors as counsellors - it's both expensive & ineffective. If marital counselling or mediation is at all likely (in your wife's view) to be constructive then use the appropriately trained professionals.

I really do hope things will work out well for you both x

[acsrjsk]

Re: Occupation order

Hi acsrjsk,

Sorry, I do realise how very painful this must be for you.

I think your analysis is probably fair - although I'm not sure how you arrived at 125K (unless it's after the mortgage has been paid?)

I think in your shoes I would have a chat with a solicitor as a next step (make sure they're Resolution accredited - and while you're at it make sure your wife's is, too) www.resolution.org.uk/

You may get a free initial half hour just to explore your options and see whether you want to instruct that particular solicitor.

If it were me (and I'm not saying this is the right, or the only, thing to do) I think I would then write to the effect that you do not wish the marriage to end, that you love your wife & would do anything in your power to put things right but you also wish to make things as easy as possible for your wife to do as her needs dictate.

You could say that, if she can see no future in the marriage and is certain that she doesn't wish you to return to the marital home then it would be best sold and best for both of you if this were done quickly.

You could then put forward your thoughts on a fair division of equity and invite her thoughts and proposals.

Obviously, it would be best to write through the solicitor (subject to your own legal advice) and you could include a more personal (sealed) message for your wife if you wished.

One thing you both need to avoid is using solicitors as counsellors - it's both expensive & ineffective. If marital counselling or mediation is at all likely (in your wife's view) to be constructive then use the appropriately trained professionals.

I really do hope things will work out well for you both x

Thank you MissFM for taking the time to reply to me. I am very grateful to you.

£125K (50%) is after the mortgage being paid. That is my guess anyway but obviously subject to valuation by professionals - I was just worried that since I put a smaller deposit than her I will get a smaller share - although I compensated over the years by me covering all the household expenses for 2 years including mortgage repayments and other bills.

I am exactly of the same opinion as you have but I have been told by DVIP (group therapy course) not to write any more letters to my wife and wait for her to get in touch with me.

I was also told last month through her solicitors that my wife will get touch with me when she is ready. I was just wondering if you had any thoughts on

1. Should I just wait until my wife gets in touch with me and not get my solicitors involved talking about divorce/financial matters etc.? This approach would mean that
I have given her the space that she has asked for after which maybe (big MAYBE) she may have change in heart? if she doesn't she can start all the financial proceedings too and I will get my own?

2. I could initiate the financial proceedings using my solicitors straightaway? This approach would mean that I have accepted the situation as it is and don't want to work on marriage anymore myself.

It is very possible that the marriage is already over (this is how her actions have shown indicate) but it is really hard to know since she has not spoken to me and will speak to me when she is ready (whenever that is). Also all communications has to go through solicitors which I have not done so far.


Many thanks

[MissFM]

Re: Occupation order

It's completely up to you which route you take. Either of the above is, IMO, reasonable. Obviously wise to heed any specific professional advice received, including from your DVIP.

But it's you that has to live with the consequences of decisions taken now - so anyone else's opinion is just a potentially useful angle for you to take into consideration.

If I were you, I would be choosing a solicitor at this point - someone you feel you can trust and who will respect your wish for all communication to be conciliatory, constructive & most emphatically not confrontational.

I do think it would be very helpful to you to have specific legal advice now, and further down the road it may be essential. Always better to choose your advisors when not under time pressures.

A solicitor specialising in family law could also give a clear assessment of what is fair (or at least customary) in the division of assets in circumstances such as yours. You can take advice without initiating any action for the time being, if that's what seems best to you when you have all the ramifications clear.

HTH x

[acsrjsk]

Re: Occupation order

It's completely up to you which route you take. Either of the above is, IMO, reasonable. Obviously wise to heed any specific professional advice received, including from your DVIP.

But it's you that has to live with the consequences of decisions taken now - so anyone else's opinion is just a potentially useful angle for you to take into consideration.

If I were you, I would be choosing a solicitor at this point - someone you feel you can trust and who will respect your wish for all communication to be conciliatory, constructive & most emphatically not confrontational.

I do think it would be very helpful to you to have specific legal advice now, and further down the road it may be essential. Always better to choose your advisors when not under time pressures.

A solicitor specialising in family law could also give a clear assessment of what is fair (or at least customary) in the division of assets in circumstances such as yours. You can take advice without initiating any action for the time being, if that's what seems best to you when you have all the ramifications clear.

HTH x

thanks again

[acsrjsk]

Re: Occupation order

Hi

It is highly likely that my wife will start divorce petition soon.

I am not going to contest it when it happens. She will be using "unreasoble behaviour" as the reason with evidence provided - I have read on the internet that I need to send "Acknowledgement of service" as the respondent.

I also read that it is sensible to admit the unreasonable behaviour to keep the costs down, which I intend to do. I also am not sure if I need to engage solicitors to talk about the divorce matter on its own (just heard that solicitors around my area charges nearly £260 including VAT!). I prefer to talk to them when we discuss about financial matters itself.

However, I understand that she can claim the divorce costs including her solicitors fees. I don't want to cover that fees incase it comes to it and when the time comes where a petition has been raised.

I read that the following two questions will be asked on the Acknowledgement of Service form:

6. Do you admit the (adultery, unreasonable behaviour etc)?
7. Even if you do not intend to defend the case do you object to paying the cost of the proceedings?


Answer to question 6 I will say "Yes" and answer to question 7, can I say "Yes" (as in I don't want to pay) too and do I have to provide an explanation to the course via the Acknowledge form? Do I have to give a reason anywere or to anyone?

Can you also explain the difference between divorce cost and financila proceedings costs please? I mean how do you differentiate between the two?

Thank you.