Parents rights - Grandparent seeking contact order. Advice needed.

[concernedmummy]

Sorry, this may seem very complicated.
I'm due to give birth to my first child. I'm concerned about the rights that my Mother may have to contact with him.
The relationship between my Mother and I has been very strained since i was 12 years old. I lived with my Father after parents divorce. I experienced significant verbal, emotional and physical abuse from my Mother. This continued until approx 17 years old when i over away.
I moved away from my local area to attend university, met my husband and now at 33 years old, feel in a position to have my own family. Over this time, i have had minimal contact with my Mother. Approx. 2-3 times per year (quick visits when visiting my home town) and at family parties etc. Both of us recognise that we do not have a relationship. We were civil and courteous to avoid family conflict and 'awkwardness'.
The complicated factor is that i have a younger sister who lived with my Mother when parents divorced. She experienced abuse and then was placed in foster care (section 20). She remained in my local town and had 2 children. She allowed my Mother contact with both etc for 10 years until a family fall out. My Mother then took her to court to seek contact. The contact she requested was quite significant and impacted on family life. This went to the final court stages with cafcas involvement and reports etc but my sister and mother resolved their difficulties and now My Mother again has contact with her Grandchildren. Due to this behaviour, i have chosen to no longer maintain any form of contact with my Mother.
My significant concern is that i have heard that once my son is born, she is going to pursue the same action against me and my son to have contact order granted via the courts. I think the outcome of events with my sister have encouraged her to do so. Me and my Mother have a very different relationship than her and my sister. I do not wish for my Mother to have contact with my son. There are a number of factors as to why, but predominately, this would pose safeguarding concerns for my child. Both my sister and i suffered abuse at her hands and she continues to drink alcohol to excess. We do not live near each other (2 hour drive) and i would not want any contact with my son in an unsupervised manner.
I respect the rights of the grandparents and have searched for advice into this matter but i can only found information that supports 'normal' grandparents, not advice for those parents who have been abused by their parents and trying to prevent similar pattern happening to their children. I hope that people recognise that not all grandparents are appropriate persons for children to have contact with. This is an extreme situation.
I have worked really hard to move away from my past, have had counselling and i have a successful career as a children's service manager.
What chance does my Mother have at getting the court to agree a contact order? This would impact on my family life and health greatly.
Thank you for your help with this matter.

[Kati]

Re: Parents rights - Grandparent seeking contact order. Advice needed.

"grandparents do not have an automatic right to contact with their grandchildren. However, family courts do recognise the invaluable role that grandparents have to play in their grandchildrens lives and it is very rare that the court would refuse a grandparent access to grandchildren unless there is evidence of abuse or violence."

As you have stated that you feel there would be safeguarding issues if your child had contact with your mother, I believe the courts would take this into account when (if) deciding to grant a contact order.

Only people with parental responsibility, for example parents, step-parents or guardians can make an application for a Contact Order. Whilst grandparents rights are limited they can, however, apply for permission (leave) to apply for a Contact Order and the courts will consider the following:

• The applicant’s connection with the child.
• The nature of the application for contact.
• Whether the application might be potentially harmful to the child’s well-being in any way.

If you are successful, you can apply for a Contact Order through the court to gain access to your grandchildren. If one, or both parents raise objections you are likely to have to attend a full hearing in which both parties can put forward their evidence. It is essential that you receive good legal advice at this stage because you will need to persuade the court that you have a meaningful and on-going relationship with your grandchildren, which significantly benefits their lives.The court will always consider all the child’s circumstances and must only make an order where they consider it better for the child than making no order at all. For example, they might have to weigh up whether your continuing contact with the child might have a negative impact on the rest of the family relationships, again it is only in extreme circumstance that a court will refuse access to grandchildren.

If your mother did apply for a contact order, you would definitely have a chance to voice your concerns about any problems you see with the application. This is your child and your decision - if you do not want your mother to have contact with your child, there is nothing she can legally do apart from go to court (where you can appeal against them granting her visitation rights anyway). The safety of the child is paramount in this situation - if you have any concerns about your mothers behaviour, the best advice I can give is to not allow contact at all.

Kati

[Johnboy007]

Re: Parents rights - Grandparent seeking contact order. Advice needed.

How very sad that a daughter cannot have a loving relationship with her mother.
I am a Grandad to seven, and soon to be a Great Grandad.
It would honestly break my heart if I didn't have contact with them all.

I understand your reluctance and fears for your little boy, but you do have the upper hand.
Perhaps a supervised contact in a safe place could be considered by you.
It does take trust from your Mother, to be able to succeed in any relationship.
Your mother has to earn that trust, it is not a God given right.
Hopefully, in a safe environment, you can help your mother achieve that trust.
It is so wrong to split family, and I really hope, that between you and your mother, you can make this work.
The most important person to consider is your little boy.
Good luck.

[Kati]

Re: Parents rights - Grandparent seeking contact order. Advice needed.

How very sad that a daughter cannot have a loving relationship with her mother.
I am a Grandad to seven, and soon to be a Great Grandad.
It would honestly break my heart if I didn't have contact with them all.

While I agree with you Johnboy007, I do have to say that the OP has to follow her gut feelings on this one :tinysmile_hmm_t2:. Supervised contact is most probably the answer, but only if the OP agrees to it - and if there are serious concerns/safeguarding issues then she has every right to insist on no contact until such a time as these have been addressed.

[wales01man]

Re: Parents rights - Grandparent seeking contact order. Advice needed.

You only have one Mother try to arrange contact in the safe way My mum =died 25 years ago I still think of her every day my LB name is a tribute to her as she was welshborn.

[Johnboy007]

Re: Parents rights - Grandparent seeking contact order. Advice needed.

You only have one Mother try to arrange contact in the safe way My mum =died 25 years ago I still think of her every day my LB name is a tribute to her as she was welshborn.

I agree with you on this one Wales, I have lost both my parents and a younger brother, and I miss them like crazy.
I also agree with Kati, it has to be 'mum's' decision, but at least in a controlled environment, there is always that chance of success.

[des8]

Re: Parents rights - Grandparent seeking contact order. Advice needed.

You asked " What chance does my Mother have at getting the court to agree a contact order?"

I would think very little. If she applies for a contact order, to which you object, there will be a full hearing.
At that hearing she will have to show she has a meaningful and on going relationship with the child.
As such a relationship doesn't exist, and bearing in mind your own unhappy relationship with your mother, IMO a contact order is unlikely to be granted.

If she does apply for a contact order do take professional advice if you still wish to contest it.

[enquirer]

Re: Parents rights - Grandparent seeking contact order. Advice needed.

Advice as per des8.

[PAWS]

Re: Parents rights - Grandparent seeking contact order. Advice needed.

Concerned Mummy, my heart goes out to you on this.:_tighthug__by_darkm I know there are some fantastic grandparents out there that play a vital role in the lives of their grandchildren but many do not come close to the ‘Werthers original’ ideal.
To be honest any mother who would threaten her child with court action is wrong. Actually, I would go further and say her even suggesting she would use the law to gain access to your child is downright spiteful.
This is only my opinion and I do not know you or your mother but you have already torn up the text books and against all the odds have refused to become a statistic for a social study. You have overcome so much to create a secure, peaceful and stable home for your family. I personally do not have any constructive legal advice to give you but you are in good hands here. I do believe what you are doing is morally right i.e. protecting your child from an influence that you know is potentially damaging. Try not to let this muddy what is a wonderful and joyful time and remember to carve yourself out some pampering moments. reggers:

[Kati]

Re: Parents rights - Grandparent seeking contact order. Advice needed.

Concerned Mummy, my heart goes out to you on this.:_tighthug__by_darkm I know there are some fantastic grandparents out there that play a vital role in the lives of their grandchildren but many do not come close to the ‘Werthers original’ ideal.
To be honest any mother who would threaten her child with court action is wrong. Actually, I would go further and say her even suggesting she would use the law to gain access to your child is downright spiteful.
This is only my opinion and I do not know you or your mother but you have already torn up the text books and against all the odds have refused to become a statistic for a social study. You have overcome so much to create a secure, peaceful and stable home for your family. I personally do not have any constructive legal advice to give you but you are in good hands here. I do believe what you are doing is morally right i.e. protecting your child from an influence that you know is potentially damaging. Try not to let this muddy what is a wonderful and joyful time and remember to carve yourself out some pampering moments. reggers:

well said Paws

[Johnboy007]

Re: Parents rights - Grandparent seeking contact order. Advice needed.

What does concern me here, is the fact that the younger sister's children have had ten years contact with their Grandmother, until a family fallout.
There is no mention of any harm coming to those children, and it seems to be more of a problem with mum and daughters.
The youngest having resumed a relationship with her mother, means that contact with her two grandchildren, has also resumed.
Now let me turn my attention to the eldest daughter's son.
Does he not have a right to also have contact with his grandmother?
As there apparently, has not been any harm done to the other two grandchildren. Then how do you know that the same condition is not going to be applied to the 'new' grandson?
Grandchildren do have rights too, which seems to have been overlooked.
Contact in a safe, controlled environment, would ensure that the 'new' grandchild, at least has had the chance to meet his grandmother.
If my own experience of having seven grandchildren is anything to go by. Then you tend to treat grandchildren with more tolerance and understanding, than you ever did with your own kids.
It would break my heart if I lost contact with my grandchildren.

[PAWS]

Re: Parents rights - Grandparent seeking contact order. Advice needed.

Johnboy, I have no doubt that you are a wonderful grandparent but that is because you were a wonderful parent. You never threatened your children with court action just to get what you want.
Concerned Mummy did not have a loving relationship with her mother. Her Mum had every opportunity to fill her life with love and security .All the things that are necessary and free in life. She was not there for her when she needed her and now takes it for granted that she can have all the joy and privilege of grand parenting without having to put in any of the long term parenting work. Yet Concerned Mummy does not harp on about that. She is not refusing her mother access out of spite, she is trying to avoid her child suffering the pain of getting to know and love a grandmother that is likely to let the child down and perhaps emotionally hurt the child.
No mother would expose her child to the influence of someone they know could cause hurt and distress just because they are a blood relation. When a woman is pregnant her own mother should be there to support and give advice not harass and threaten.

Many, many years ago when I was very young I signed away my right to be a parent in a convent in Ireland. I watched that car drive away with my 5 day old daughter and knew that I was saying goodbye to parenting and grandparenting. I would have sold my very soul just to have an opportunity to tell that little girl just how much I loved her and still do but I had to do what was right for her regardless of how much it broke my heart. I would never have done anything to make my little girl unhappy but I would never, ever assume I had an automatic right to be a part of her life now nor would I distress her by demanding to be a part of her children’s lives. Although the odds were stacked against me I had my chance to be a mother and it is not my daughters fault I made a b***s of it.
As I said before, No loving mother would put her pregnant daughter through such distress just to get what she wants.

[Kati]

Re: Parents rights - Grandparent seeking contact order. Advice needed.

Until my own Grandad died (just over a year ago) I was the only one of his three Grandkids who had any contact with him whatsoever. I took my sons to visit as often as I could (over 2hrs by train and busses at each end too) and we spoke at least once a week on the phone too. I can remember growing up with the knowledge that my mum's new partner had stopped all contact with my grandad and uncle (and aunty) after a silly disagreement, and I was determined to not let this quarrel stop MY children knowing their extended family! At his funeral, I finally they finally got to meet their great uncle and aunty (first time since they were babies, as they live too far away) and also the rest of the family (who hadn't seen me since I was 5ish). We now make sure that there is regular contact and plan on meeting up again in the near future.

I grew up in a divided family, and would never wish that on anyone .... but the OP needs to follow her heart. If she can look past her own relationship with her mother and see what might be, she may well decide that her own child deserves the chance to meet his grandma. If not, then (at the end of the day) it is her decision!

[Johnboy007]

Re: Parents rights - Grandparent seeking contact order. Advice needed.

Johnboy, I have no doubt that you are a wonderful grandparent but that is because you were a wonderful parent. You never threatened your children with court action just to get what you want.
Concerned Mummy did not have a loving relationship with her mother. Her Mum had every opportunity to fill her life with love and security .All the things that are necessary and free in life. She was not there for her when she needed her and now takes it for granted that she can have all the joy and privilege of grand parenting without having to put in any of the long term parenting work. Yet Concerned Mummy does not harp on about that. She is not refusing her mother access out of spite, she is trying to avoid her child suffering the pain of getting to know and love a grandmother that is likely to let the child down and perhaps emotionally hurt the child.
No mother would expose her child to the influence of someone they know could cause hurt and distress just because they are a blood relation. When a woman is pregnant her own mother should be there to support and give advice not harass and threaten.

Many, many years ago when I was very young I signed away my right to be a parent in a convent in Ireland. I watched that car drive away with my 5 day old daughter and knew that I was saying goodbye to parenting and grandparenting. I would have sold my very soul just to have an opportunity to tell that little girl just how much I loved her and still do but I had to do what was right for her regardless of how much it broke my heart. I would never have done anything to make my little girl unhappy but I would never, ever assume I had an automatic right to be a part of her life now nor would I distress her by demanding to be a part of her children’s lives. Although the odds were stacked against me I had my chance to be a mother and it is not my daughters fault I made a b***s of it.
As I said before, No loving mother would put her pregnant daughter through such distress just to get what she wants.

Paws, while I understand what you are saying, concerning the relationship between Concerned Mummy and her own mother.
The fact still remains, that her younger sister's two children, seem to have an acceptable relationship with their grandmother.
I read your own story and my heart went out to you.
I never knew my own father, I was a war baby and my father was Canadian.
Mum remarried after the war and I was lucky, I had a really wonderful step-dad and wanted for nothing as a boy.
I just think that kids too have a right to know their roots.
How do you know, that somewhere out there, your own daughter isn't looking up at the sky and wishing that she could meet her biological mother?
I think your main problem is fear....
Fear of being blamed for having to give her away.
Fear of being rejected by the one thing you love beyond life itself.
I really hope and pray that one day, your paths will cross, and that the little girl you think is lost to you, will return once more with love and understanding.
I also hope that 'Concerned Mummy' will, one day, be able to make peace with her own mother, and that her son will be able to have a great relationship with his grandmother.

[PAWS]

Re: Parents rights - Grandparent seeking contact order. Advice needed.

Many thanks Johnboy but the ‘deal’ for me was she can trace me if she wants but I cannot and would never try to trace her. I only wanted to show that a parent, even someone who was only a mother technically for 5 days, knows that you have to put your child first no matter what age they are. – However this is not about me!
I just totally support this lady and understand her worries. A bad grandparent, or indeed parent is not better than none at all. Her sister’s and nephews/ nieces relationship with her mother should not be the template for her parenting. It is sad, it is actually tragic. I am all in favour of extended family however if this lady is already being threatened by her mother before the child is even born; well that speaks volumes.