Where does English law stand for contact/visitation of half siblings?

[sundaygirl]

My half-siblings are with their mother who has changed their names and location from when they lived in shared residence with their mother and our father. For the better part of a year I didn't know if my siblings were okay. In doing this, she has broken a court order (from a case that my dad won) which specifically forbid her from her doing so. She has not been reprimanded for this, nor refusing to attend the custody court case (which I believe puts her in contempt of court?). She's also been proven to be a liar (perjury?) in a finding of a fact case. We have done everything we could. For the past 2½ years my dad has been going to court to try and get some form of resolution, but to no avail. The English legal system have been dragging their feet and my father and I cannot get to see my siblings. The police were poor at dealing with this situation, and CAFCAS have been disorganised with their appointment of a guardian, who has in turn been disorganised. I am currently trying to get the guardian to pass on a letter to my siblings.

Is there anything that can be done? How much will it cost to do something? Could anyone shed some light on why the English legal system is like this?

Any help is greatly appreciated.

[PlanB]

Re: Where does English law stand for contact/visitation of half siblings?

You've asked about the English legal system, so is this a cross-border legal issue? I really wish I knew more about this subject and I'm sure someone will come along soon to help you :hug:

Do you know where your siblings now live and is there any court order preventing you or your father from seeing them even if you can't all live together anymore?

[sundaygirl]

Re: Where does English law stand for contact/visitation of half siblings?

thank you so much for taking the time out to reply.

This is all happening in England; i was just clarifying. Hopefully this is will not turn into a cross-border issue (although the changing of the names worries me - there was a ban on passports, as the mother was a flight risk. is it possible for her to get passports now that she has changed their names?)

we know the regional area that they are now in, but we can't get to see them. it's hard to explain, but family law is FURAB. We can't approach them. if we do, the mother will call the police and says it's harassment she has and has a wide variety of injunctions and restraining orders to use to stop us. i agree that it makes no sense and is totally and completely frustrating.

I was really wondering if there was anything that I, as a sibling could do to see them, as it's so difficult for fathers to make any headway.
what other details do you need?

thanks for trying to help.

[PlanB]

Re: Where does English law stand for contact/visitation of half siblings?

we know the regional area that they are now in, but we can't get to see them. it's hard to explain, but family law is FURAB. We can't approach them. if we do, the mother will call the police and says it's harassment she has and has a wide variety of injunctions and restraining orders to use to stop us. i agree that it makes no sense and is totally and completely frustrating.

I was really wondering if there was anything that I, as a sibling could do to see them, as it's so difficult for fathers to make any headway.

You refer to 'we' and 'us' but I expect any injunctions and restraining orders may be against the children's father (your Dad) and not you, so I can see no logical or legal reason for you to be disallowed from contact with your half-siblings unless you are specifically named in any court order.

I also see from your profile page that you are 20 years old and therefore an adult, and I would like to think that there is a lawful way for you to see your half-siblings. It may be that you can establish contact for yourself, but I sense you are seeking to achieve contact for your father too which may be less easy. How long since you've seen them and how old are they now?

It's the weekend so not many people about on here. Wait until tomorrow and someone will be able to help you to find the way forward There are a lot of us on here who are married, divorced, re-married with lots of children along the way so you'll get good advice. It's nice to know that you want to make the effort to keep your family in touch as they grow up so let's see what we can do to help you :grouphug:

[sundaygirl]

Re: Where does English law stand for contact/visitation of half siblings?

true, the childrens mother has no legal right to bar me from seeing them. But she will not let me see them. She has tried to eradicate every trace of my fathers side of the family from them (the name changing).

I've got a meeting with my fathers solicitor to see what I can do, but I've been trawling the net, and I can't find ANYthing about sibling visitation privileges.

It'll be three years in July since I've seen them (they were 5 and 8). They will now be 8 and 11, respectively.

Thanks.

[PlanB]

Re: Where does English law stand for contact/visitation of half siblings?

the childrens mother has no legal right to bar me from seeing them. But she will not let me see them. She has tried to eradicate every trace of my fathers side of the family from them . . .

. . . . It'll be three years in July since I've seen them (they were 5 and 8). They will now be 8 and 11
.

Have you ever met their mother so she can assess for herself how genuine you are? Would she allow the children to receive letters and birthday cards from you even if this means you send them to her first to read or even via an intermediary? She needs to be convinced that you're someone in your own right who only has her childrens' interests at heart and that you're not her ex-husband who she fears has a negative agenda. It will take time so don't give up.

I'm hopeful that "the legal system" will give you legal rights, but at the same time you may have to find a way to bridge the emotional gap with her too because it's not hard to ignore court orders as you have discovered.

[sundaygirl]

Re: Where does English law stand for contact/visitation of half siblings?

i've met their mother. my dad was with her for a while when i was a child. she does not like me.

the children have a guardian. me and my father gave birthday presents to dads solicitor to give to the guardian to give to the kids. because of their mother, they received the cards and letters late.

[PlanB]

Re: Where does English law stand for contact/visitation of half siblings?

the children have a guardian. me and my father gave birthday presents to dads solicitor to give to the guardian to give to the kids. because of their mother, they received the cards and letters late.

Do you know why the children have a guardian?

At least the children got the cards and presents from you even if they were a little late

I'm not up-to-speed on what 11 year olds can and can't do these days (I'm an old mother!) but if they have access to the internet maybe you could set up a Facebook page and communicate with them that way until you establish face-to-face contact, or even talk using Skype :typing:

[Inca]

Re: Where does English law stand for contact/visitation of half siblings?

Be very very careful with social networking sites,,you must make sure the Mother knows about it because it could be a huge own goal if she finds out for herself.
I can't give you any advice really,,I'm sure others will be along in due course but ,as hard as it is now,those children ARE growing up and sooner or later Mother won't have a choice if they want to see you.
Speak to the solicitor and I hope it goes well for you
x

[sundaygirl]

Re: Where does English law stand for contact/visitation of half siblings?

the children have a guardian because of the legal deadlock caused by their mother non-compliance with orders for her to appear in court.

Thanks for the advice; i'm well aware of how tentative I must be in starting contact with them.

[PlanB]

Re: Where does English law stand for contact/visitation of half siblings?

When is the meeting with your father's solicitor because that will give you certainty? I've also been trawling the net for answers to your question with not much luck so far. I'll post again when I find something helpful because I'm quite sure that you do have legal rights but it's just a question of enforcing them when your half-siblings' mother is dead set on breaking all ties with her previous life with your father

[sundaygirl]

Re: Where does English law stand for contact/visitation of half siblings?

thanks for trying - I've been searching for a while now, and i'm surprised myself at how little focus there is on siblings. i have found a little on grandparents - but even that is sparing.

i did some research today and found a little about contact orders (sections and 8 and 10 of the children act 1989), but even that has sanctions on where it can be applied, who can apply for it, and seems to be applied at the courts discretion (section 10 lays out who is allowed to apply for contact - siblings, grandparents etc do not have the automatic right of contact.

there have been some people who have been some people and cases that have highlighted that the way things are concerning family in child custody cases is wrong (Thaddeus Metz; Dwyer, J. G. (2006); the case of Barker v Barker; Lord justice ward in the case of AvN; Bracewell J in the case of VvV 2004; Beaudry, simard, drapeau & Charbonneau 2000; Bush & Ehrenberg 2003; kaplan, Hennan & ade-ridder 1993; poehlmann & colleagues (2008); Williams (1995); L. K., C. B. And h., 497 A. 2d 21S; N. J. Super, CE, Ch. Div 1985). However none of these views have been put forward into actual court cases - thus those who are not with the custodial parent are rendered powerless.

i'm meeting with the solicitor on Monday.

[leclerc]

Re: Where does English law stand for contact/visitation of half siblings?

thanks for trying - I've been searching for a while now, and i'm surprised myself at how little focus there is on siblings. i have found a little on grandparents - but even that is sparing.

i did some research today and found a little about contact orders (sections and 8 and 10 of the children act 1989), but even that has sanctions on where it can be applied, who can apply for it, and seems to be applied at the courts discretion (section 10 lays out who is allowed to apply for contact - siblings, grandparents etc do not have the automatic right of contact.

there have been some people who have been some people and cases that have highlighted that the way things are concerning family in child custody cases is wrong (Thaddeus Metz; Dwyer, J. G. (2006); the case of Barker v Barker; Lord justice ward in the case of AvN; Bracewell J in the case of VvV 2004; Beaudry, simard, drapeau & Charbonneau 2000; Bush & Ehrenberg 2003; kaplan, Hennan & ade-ridder 1993; poehlmann & colleagues (2008); Williams (1995); L. K., C. B. And h., 497 A. 2d 21S; N. J. Super, CE, Ch. Div 1985). However none of these views have been put forward into actual court cases - thus those who are not with the custodial parent are rendered powerless.

i'm meeting with the solicitor on Monday.

I am now very interested in this. Apologies for not coming on earlier onto this thread and apologies for not being able to offer too much advice currently. This topic is one that concerns me because of current issues that are ongoing with social care and my sister's kids. Long story which I am sure I will go into soon.

I do have one question and I apologise for asking this question, how old are you? I will definitely look on the thread tomorrow when I will be very much alert and very much researching the cases you have posted up.

The perspective of the court is about what is in the best interests of the children and not what is in the best interests of the mother of those children. There may be an issue that the mother is concerned about divulging the exact location of the children to your father but perhaps a contact centre might be a suggestion for you.

[Kitiara]

Re: Where does English law stand for contact/visitation of half siblings?

Hi Sundaygirl & welcome to LB.

We are in a similar situation, my Partner has a son who was 10 last week, he was with his son's mother for 9 years (not married) during this time he brought up her other 3 children, when my Partners son was born, his half sister was 11 and became very close to the baby (even having his name tattooed down her arm when she was older. When she was 16, her mother threw her out and she has had no contact with her half brother since (she is now 22). We are in regular contact with her, but her mother has stated that we are not to let *L* see his half sister while he is in our care on contact visits (this will hopefully all change shortly if we are granted residency at the end of April). We have asked our solicitor if there is anything his half sister can do if we are not granted residency, and the advice was to take out her own contact order to re-establish contact; apparently if there has already been contact, which it seems there has in your case, then its much easier to do than setting up contact for the first time (siblings you have never met). This has to be done via a solicitor and goes before the family court the same as a Parental contact order. The "mother" has to show good reason for the contact not to be re-established i.e.your a danger to the child(ren) or your a drug user, have been violent towards them in the past etc.

It may not go your way, but at least you will know that you have tried everything you can to see your half siblings. You might like to start a sort of diary, putting in little thoughts you have had of your siblings, memories, things you have done to try to see them etc, this way, even if you are not sucsessful now in seeing them, once they are of age and they can see you with no repercussions, and you can show them your "diary" to let them know they were never far from your thoughts, and you really did all you could to see them.

Good luck with this hunni, whatever the outcome, you know you have done your best to see them, and you sound like a sister any child would be proud of :hug:

[sundaygirl]

Re: Where does English law stand for contact/visitation of half siblings?

Thanks to all who post and try to help me. More so, thanks for just taking the time to listen. I apologise, as I’ve been doing a lot of research in the past week, and so haven't been here posting. I've whittled down my research and fine-tuned it a bit better. Hopefully this post will offer hope to others – I got really frustrated looking online and finding sparing legal information of siblings, so here; I’ve written something. Is there anything anybody would like to add?).

leclerc:
- thanks for your interest. I am 20 years old. Good luck to you and your sister (you suggest you are having a similar problem? There’s money to be made off of misery in the legal system, so you may face many delays and adjournments. The only advice I can give you is try and be patient - otherwise you will be driven up the wall (trust me). Regardless, I’ll say it again; good luck).
- Also, the courts may claim that they act in the best interest of the children; in practice, their decisions in court suggest that they really don’t (see comments made by joyanne bracewell) – for example, parents who abduct their children often remain with the parent that abducted them (Wilson J in Re L (abduction: pending criminal proceedings) [1990] 1 FLR 433). Being kidnapped can't be argued to be being in the best interest of the child.
^ see the case of Re C (A Child) [2008] EWCA Civ 551; it highlights how unfair the law can be. also bainham (1998) comments on how the law often equates the best interests of the children with that of the residential parent.

kitiari -thank you too for your interest and kind words. The diary is a nice idea.
From my research it's true that I (or anyone else with a 'meaningful connection' to the children) can apply for a contact order under sections 8 and 10 of the children’s act 1989 (see the case of Re M (grandma) 1995). Contact is the right of the child (Re C (abduction: residence and contact) 2005 and sir Stephen Brown’s comments in Re W (a minor (contact) 1994). Children should still have contact with their non-residential parent (Re P (minors) (contact: parental hostility) (1997; Re O (contact: indirect contact) (1996)). This is confirmed in the human rights act (Re C (abduction: residence and contact) 2005). Further, the courts say that contact shouldn't be denied without good reason (See the cases of M v M 1973; also see Butler-Sloss's comments in re R minor 1993. Further, the case of Re H 1992 begged the question of why children are being denied contact in the 1^st place). Denying contact in the absence of good reason is a form of harm to children (V v V (contact: implacable hostility) 2004; Re E (a minor: access) 1987) and shouldn’t be allowed Re O (contact: opposition of conditions) 1995; see also Re W (a minor) (contact) 1994 2 FLR 441; CA at p. 447; 1994 2 FCR 1216; see also Balcombe LJ in Re J (a minor) (contact (1994) 1 FLR 729.see also waite LJ in Re D(a minor) (contact: mothers hostility) (1993) ; see also Thaddeus Metz comments in Barker v Barker (an American case)
Thus, contact is acknowledged as being important. The courts have stated that it shouldn’t be prevented(Hoekkanen v Finland 1995, 1995). If contact is granted, the state should take reasonable steps to enforce it without delay. If the state doesn’t, it’s in breach of article 8 of the EU convention of human rights (Karadzic v Croatia [2006]; M v Serbia [2007]).
However, there is no automatic right for non-parent who apply for contact orders. Success varies based on judicial discretion (see Zaffino v Zaffino (abduction: children’s) [2005]) – in Re A (A Minor) (residence order: leave to apply) [1998] 2 FLR 799, an aunt who had cared for her nephew was denied a contact order, however in some other cases grandparents have been successful (Adam v Germany [2009] 1 FLR 560; Re W (contact: application by grandparent) [2001] 1 FLR 263).
Even if I do manage to get the contact order, the real problem is going to be getting the contact order enforced. It's true that there’s no real reason for me or any other member of my family being denied. However, contact orders (though seemingly created with the best intentions) are frustrating - they simply state the status quo. ‘Parent A is denying contact to Parent B; this isn’t right’. The threats of imprisonment, unpaid labour and fining, written into children’s act 1989 for Hostile, non-compliant parent s who deny contact to the non-residential parent, are arguably empty. They are hardly ever implemented (B v S contempt: imprisonment of mother 2009; Re s (contact dispute: committal) 2004; A v N (committal refusal of contact) [1997])
This begs the question: is getting a contact order going to be effective? Contact orders state that the residential parent (who is blocking the contact in the first place) has the responsibility (not obligation) to facilitate contact. I can imagine a lot of deadlock arising from me getting the contact order, and finding it hard to get it implemented (see Bingham’s comments in the case of Re O (Contact: imposition of conditions)) 1995, also see Re W (a minor: contact) 1994, also see Bingham in Re O (contact: imposition of conditions) 1995 and Ward LJ in Re M (contact: supervision) 1998 and (Re P(contact: supervision) 1996.