Disaplinary &Tribunal

[nutta]

If you do not agree with the outcome of your disaplinary hearing can you take it to a tribunal, and are the people who sit on them independent?

[Sangie595]

Re: Disaplinary &Tribunal

Unless you have been dismissed, the answer is no you cannot take it to a tribunal.

[nutta]

Re: Disaplinary &Tribunal

So if you you get a verbal or written warming and you appeal and it still doesnt go your way, can you not take it to a tribunal?

[Sangie595]

Re: Disaplinary &Tribunal

No you cannot.

[nutta]

Re: Disaplinary &Tribunal

If you appeal against there decsion,from a verbal or written warning are the panel then independent then?

[Sangie595]

Re: Disaplinary &Tribunal

If you appeal against there decsion,from a verbal or written warning are the panel then independent then?

If you mean independent if the employer, the answer is still no. Any outcome below dismissal can only be appealed within the employers disciplinary system - there is no external court.

If this relates to your previous posts and allegations of bullying, you also need to know that even if you had been dismissed you may not have won a tribunal. Like many people you appear to believe that tribunals near appeals - that is, that they hear the case again and come to their own conclusion. They do not do this, and the cannot do this. A tribunal would consider two aspects of law. The first is whether a proper process was carried out. The second is whether the decision the employer came to was one which was within the choices "any reasonable employer" might have come to.

If you have been accused of bullying, then dismissal would, in most circumstances, be considered an option open to the employer. And the crux of your argument, if I understand it correctly from previous posts, was that several witnesses said got did it, and several said you didn't,( or they didn't see it ). In such cases where there are two sides to a story, one of which cannot be true, the employer must decide who to believe. They have chosen not to believe you. The chances of any tribunal overturning such a decision, or, indeed, being able to, are very low. Remember, they cannot put their own judgement over the employers and they cannot rehear the arguments and the case.

Although that is irrelevant if the outcome was less than a dismissal, it is important that you understand that there is never any independent appeal of the sort you mean here. But if the outcome was less than dismissal, then you can only use the employers disciplinary appeals, and having exhausted those, you are finished. If you cannot accept the outcome, then your only choices are to resign, or get another job. Sorry.

[nutta]

Re: Disaplinary &Tribunal

I haven't had my discaplinary yet (it is in January) but I have lots of evidence to show that the 3 girls are best friends. I have been there 10 years one has been there 10 months, They have said I have bullied one of them by pulling faces when asked to do some cutting out. Also because I wouldn't change a reading book. Another one was I wouldn't take biscuits out of the oven. I can't believe these are even bullying issuses. Although I'm being taken to a discaplinary hearing x

[Sangie595]

Re: Disaplinary &Tribunal

I haven't had my discaplinary yet (it is in January) but I have lots of evidence to show that the 3 girls are best friends. I have been there 10 years one has been there 10 months, They have said I have bullied one of them by pulling faces when asked to do some cutting out. Also because I wouldn't change a reading book. Another one was I wouldn't take biscuits out of the oven. I can't believe these are even bullying issuses. Although I'm being taken to a discaplinary hearing x

Even if they are best friends, that does not mean that you aren't a bully. And a few photographs of them spending time together does not make them liars. The length of time you have been there compared to them is also irrelevant - bullies are often long term members of staff who are used to getting their own way! Neither of these things is a legitimate defence. The question here is whether these things are true. Are they? Whether or not things are considered a bullying issue depends on context - without making any judgement about whether or not you are guilty of bullying, every single bully says that what they did wasn't bullying, it was humour, or banter, or whatever. And bullying doesn't have to comprise calling names or being aggressive. It could be undermining someone's authority.

And please don't take this the wrong way, but I suggest that you think carefully about the way you present yourself in a disciplinary hearing. Girls are what you have in the classroom. These women are teachers; and you are a teaching assistant, which means that if a teacher asks or directs you to do something, that is what you are expected to do. Again, please don't take this the wrong way, but the way you are writing this comes across as entitled - "I have been here for ever and you don't get to tell me to swap a reading book after just ten months". I am sure that isn't what you mean - but you need to remember that this hearing will be having to make a judgement about the truth here, and you do not want them to make a judgement based on how you appear to come across.

It might be helpful to remind you that someone has decided that there is a case to answer - that is why there is a disciplinary hearing. That is not the same thing as saying you did it! But someone thinks there is sufficient about the story that this goes beyond a bit of a fall out over nothing between colleagues. That, in itself, doesn't surprise me - once allegations of this sort are being flung about, relationships are so poor that they are very difficult to fix. But none of this means you are guilty or that you will be found guilty. But equally, if you did pull faces, or refuse to swap a book, you are not going to get very far if you simply say that this isn't bullying. I don't know the circumstances of these incidents or what you have already said, but something along the lines of "if XXXX thought that I was being bullying, then that certainly wasn't my intention and I'm sorry if she thought it was. I wish she'd said something to me at the time so that we could have sorted it out". In other words, you can still say that you are not guilty of bullying whilst being apologetic for how it may have been taken. The same about service - you can talk about your own long record, without mentioning that these teachers haven't been in the school for long. Words are very important in making judgements about cases such as these. Because it is small words and actions that often are the cause for offense. Just because you didn't mean to give offence doesn't mean that you didn't unintentionally do so. It takes strength of character to be able to apologise for something that you didn't even realise was causing offense - and if that is what you have done, you need to summon up that strength and do it. That doesn't mean admitting to bullying. But it could make a difference in how the hearing progresses to a decision.

Obviously, I am not for one minute suggesting that you admit to doing something that you did not do. If you have been accused of something and you are certain that you didn't do it, then you must say so. Equally, if you do not remember, don't be tempted to lie about it - say you don't remember doing it. For example, I am sure that when people have asked me to do something there will be times when I have pulled a face - but for the life of me I don't know when those times were! It's a sort of automatic reaction, isn't it? The other person may see it, but often times you don't even know you did it.

Honesty is always the best defence. If you tell the truth then you can't be tripped up by it. You don't have to remember what you said. And that is what most often gets people into trouble - telling small lies that really don't help in a misguided attempt to get out of trouble. If you tell two different stories ( for example, saying you didn't do something, and then later saying you don't remember) then that makes it look like deliberate lies. Such small things can become the focus when a panel has to decide who is telling the truth.

One other small point. It is entirely possible that you are BOTH telling the truth. How someone perceives what someone else does is not always what that person intended. Maybe you didn't mean to bully and didn't set out to do so; but maybe the others really did interpret the way you acted as bullying. That happens. Another possible outcome might be that you get a warning about the way that you act with people. Don't let that become the centre of your universe and mar your career. We all make mistakes! I'll be honest. I can think of more than one occasion where I have rolled my eyes at the idiocy of the newbie rep, or sighed heavily when someone's name is mentioned, or even been quite short with someone. Every single one of those things could have landed me in the same place as you are. I shouldn't do them. I know I shouldn't. But they sometimes escape before I can think! I doubt anyone here could say otherwise. We all do it. As I said before, if this is what it is - an apology and saying that that was honestly not what you intended can sometimes be the quickest fix.

[nutta]

Re: Disaplinary &Tribunal

Thankyou so much for your help, and taking the time to write back to me. I did say a few times in my investigation 'I can't remember " and I also asked why wasn't I told at the time if I had done something wrong and why has it never been reported to the head? There was no answer, I'm sure I'll find out at the discaplinary. Thankyou again for your help x

[Sangie595]

Re: Disaplinary &Tribunal

Thankyou so much for your help, and taking the time to write back to me. I did say a few times in my investigation 'I can't remember " and I also asked why wasn't I told at the time if I had done something wrong and why has it never been reported to the head? There was no answer, I'm sure I'll find out at the discaplinary. Thankyou again for your help x

You are welcome. The reason you didn't get an answer is because, by the time it gets to this stage, it is no longer a discussion. The investigating officer can't explain these things to you, even if they know the answer. That isn't their job. But it may be something that the panel will want to know too. You can point out to the panel that if someone had felt you were acting badly, you would have been delighted if they pointed it out at the time so that it could be fixed. I do agree that often entire situations can be avoided by people being sensible - but people often aren't!

I hope it goes ok for you. Do let us know, won't you?

[nutta]

Re: Disaplinary &Tribunal

Yes of course I'll let you know, thankyou for all your advice. I'm not a horrible person and if someone had just spoke to me about things I would have been the first to apologize and put things right. It didn't have to come to this. But I'll definitely let you know the outcome, thankyou again for all your advice x

[nutta]

Re: Disaplinary &Tribunal

Hi, as you know I have my discaplinary on Friday. I Have jusr found out that my H/T didn't follow the proper procedures and lots of staff have broken confiedentalty. Also there has been alot of colluson between staff Do you you think this will help my case in anway ?

[Sangie595]

Re: Disaplinary &Tribunal

You will need to explain what you mean here- details. I can really comment on just the headlines, add it may or may not be relevant or a help.

[nutta]

Re: Disaplinary &Tribunal

Apparently the H/T should have spoken to us both first and then if anything had happened between us within 3months of her speaking to us THEN take it to an investigation . But she went straight to HR on the day of the incident. Also I was accused of taking fraudulent leave of absence. I have proven I had a hospital appointment, 4 members of staff have all said the excat same " I took my dad to hospital " when I said I was going somewhere else.

[Sangie595]

Re: Disaplinary &Tribunal

Apparently the H/T should have spoken to us both first and then if anything had happened between us within 3months of her speaking to us THEN take it to an investigation . But she went straight to HR on the day of the incident. Also I was accused of taking fraudulent leave of absence. I have proven I had a hospital appointment, 4 members of staff have all said the excat same " I took my dad to hospital " when I said I was going somewhere else.

I don't think that helps you at all. Disciplinary processes are not set in stone in the way that you think they are. Bullying is a serious matter, and it would not be practicable to handle all situations in the same informal way. Especially when there is more than one complainant. And it is not a very good idea to start accusing the head teacher. Do that and it won't matter what the outcome of this hearing is , - you will have just added the head teacher to the list of people who are waiting to get you the next time. Don't alienate people you don't need to.

As for the "collusion", I am not sure that helps you either. It doesn't prove that you didn't bully them. And it doesn't prove that what they think they heard was "collusion". It could also have been genuine mishearing. Maybe what you said sounded different. Or are you certain that you didn't say something else so that you didn't have to explain why you were at the hospital. You may raise it as an example of how "confused" some conversations have become, perhaps. But play down accusations of deliberate actions, because you cannot prove it was deliberate collusion. Think about it. If you don't lose your job - and I get that that is a worry - you still have to work with these people. The worse the throwing around of allegations get, the harder that will be. They were "mistaken", not "colluding". It just goes to show, doesn't it, how things can be misinterpreted? Maybe they misconstrued some other things? Perfectly understandable mistake?

Because there is one thing you need to understand. Whatever happens here, nobody is going to dismiss four teachers for a teaching assistant. That just isn't going to happen. So no matter what, they are going to survive this, and you will have too work with them. There are four of them. And if they continue to hunt for ways to report you, eventually they will find them. Nobody is perfect. Your best outcome needs to be that you all walk away having saved face. And "it's all a big misunderstanding" is just about the only way to do that. And for all that I am sure that they HAVE colluded, if you are dismissed then you will struggle with a tribunal claim. A tribunal will not rehear the case and reach its own decision. It doesn't do that. It will consider whether it is reasonable for the employer to believe you bullied four people. It's their word against yours. So off course it is reasonable to believe it because there are four of them saying you did it! And then they will have to decide whether dismissal was one of the potential outcomes that would be reasonable. In all cases of bullying, it is. That doesn't mean you have no case to make - but it's weak. You don't want to be there. Your best outcome is that you all go away slightly happy and slightly unhappy, then get on with your lives.