Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

[matt3942]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

@Openlaw15 - I was replying to @wales01man so I'm somewhat confused as to what you're referring to.

Incidentally, at no point have I alluded to being a psychology expert!

[Jojo71]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

May I add my thoughts Jojo? I'm posting as a mother not as a lawyer.

Your son has clearly been upset by the experience which is why he's worried that 'working life' will always be like this. While I can't guarantee it won't, I also can't guarantee life in the workplace will always be plain sailing. There are bullies and bad managers out there in their droves. That's what employment law is supposed to prevent or remedy when things go wrong.

Maybe it's not been all bad if it's taught him how to handle such a situation. He will learn through the bad experience. Obviously it would have been better if it never had happened.

I can also sense that you're upset on his behalf. What mother wouldn't be. I used to fight my daughter's battles until she told me to butt out (golly, I hope she doesn't read my posts ). The hardest part for me was being able to let go so that she had to find her feet in the real world.

My dear old mum used to say to me "you have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find your prince". The same applies to finding the right job.

I wish your son loads of luck in whatever way he decides to handle the situation.

Di

Hi [MENTION=87380]Diana M[/MENTION],

thank you for your kind words, it is so hard to try to detach yourself from it when you can see the upset and hurt it has caused your child. The more I speak to my son and find out how poorly he has been treated the harder it gets not to want to fight the injustice.

He will get there, and hopefully he won't face anything as brutal at his next place of work. It's now trying to understand what he wants to and what he is able to do next.

Jo

[Jojo71]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

Right, moving forward:

My son needs to contact his employer to ask for his coursework to be sent back to him so he can continue his NVQ if another place is found for him to complete it. Within this email I will get him to ask about the grievance procedure (as according to the employee handbook a terminated employee can raise them) and who he should contact.

I will also get him to contact the Training Provider as he needs to know what is happening, Hopefully their response will give the proof of the Tri-partitite agreement. If not will apply for SAR just in case we need it further down the line.
[MENTION=67649]matt3942[/MENTION], [MENTION=39710]des8[/MENTION], [MENTION=77627]Openlaw15[/MENTION] any thoughts

[Openlaw15]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

Right, moving forward:

My son needs to contact his employer to ask for his coursework to be sent back to him so he can continue his NVQ if another place is found for him to complete it. Within this email I will get him to ask about the grievance procedure (as according to the employee handbook a terminated employee can raise them) and who he should contact.

I will also get him to contact the Training Provider as he needs to know what is happening, Hopefully their response will give the proof of the Tri-partitite agreement. If not will apply for SAR just in case we need it further down the line.
@matt3942, @des8, @Openlaw15 any thoughts

The company procedure on the docs you provided states that the course was done in-house, effectively. So why didn't your son take the course work home? There are just so many posts now it's hard to keep track of what steps have been taken thus far. If you haven't done so already, make contact with the director of the company first of all to see if there's a way forward. This could be done by making a formal Appeal to the director, of the parent company (ie the main one) if there are subsidiaries. Private companies and this one likely being no exception, usually have a 3 stage complaint system, purposely to compartmentalise problems and solutions, mainly for efficiency. Start the process off if not done already. You will write to the director but the director will delegate. Am not sure of the time limits for Apprentice type claims, but to the Tribunal, I think it's a 3 month window....at least harassment, victimisation are, I believe.

[Jojo71]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

[MENTION=77627]Openlaw15[/MENTION], my son was dismissed on Tuesday and only received his letter of dismissal on Friday so nothing has been done so far, aside from my son speaking to personnel to find out what was happening as (according to my son) his manager wasn't very clear. He wasn't given the chance to clear his desk on Tuesday as he was just sent home and he didn't think about taking his coursework at the time.

ACAS said there was 3 months from date of dismissal to bring a tribunal.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

@Openlaw15, my son was dismissed on Tuesday and only received his letter of dismissal on Friday so nothing has been done so far, aside from my son speaking to personnel to find out what was happening as (according to my son) his manager wasn't very clear. He wasn't given the chance to clear his desk on Tuesday as he was just sent home and he didn't think about taking his coursework at the time.

ACAS said there was 3 months from date of dismissal to bring a tribunal.

It could take 30 days for each stage of the complaint to be answered, if the employer wanted to take advantage. Write the Appeal to the director; write also to the body for Apprenticeships. Failing this you could ask the Tribunal to make a Disclosure for the employer to provide the Apprentice Agreement. It'll cost the employer at least several thousand to defend this claim, so you might get threatened with costs orders. Are you going to represent your son or pay for a employment lawyer?

[Jojo71]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

[MENTION=77627]Openlaw15[/MENTION], there are only 2 stages open if they follow their handbook

Stage 2
Write to the employee's senior Manager setting out your grievance in full (please include copies of any relevant documents, dates, and names of individuals involved). The Company will invite the employee to a meeting to discuss the grievance, and will try to resolve matters to the employee's satisfaction. The employee must take all reasonable steps to attend the meeting. It may be necessary for the Company to carry out an investigation into your grievance. The amount ofany investigation required will depend on the nature of the allegations and will vary from case to case. It may involve interviewing and taking statements from the employee and any witnesses, and/or reviewing relevant documents. The employee must co-operate fully and promptly in any investigation. This may include informing the Company of the names of any relevant witnesses, disclosing any relevant documents to the employee and attending interviews, as part of the Company's investigation. The Company may initiate an investigation before holding a grievance meeting where it considers this appropriate. In other cases the Company may hold a grievance meeting before deciding what investigation (if any) to carry out. In those cases the Company will hold a further grievance meeting with the employee after the Company's investigation and before the Company reaches a decision.
After the meeting, the Company will write to the employee with the outcome of the grievance. The letter will include a reminder of the employee's right to appeal if he or she is not satisfied with the outcome.
Stage 3
If the employee wishes to appeal, he or she must write to the Human Resources Director within seven working days of receiving the stage 2 decision. The employee's appeal letter must set out the reasons for his/her appeal.
The Company will invite the employee to attend an appeal meeting with the Human Resources Director when his/her grievance and reasons for appealing will be discussed further. The Company will remind you of your right to be accompanied.
After the meeting, the Company will write to you with its final decision. All grievances will be dealt with effectively and quickly wherever it is practicable to do so.
There is no further appeal from this decision.




After Termination Of Employment
If the employee wishes to lodge a grievance after his or her employment has ended, the Company can either go through stages 2 and 3 above, or can agree to deal with matters on the basis of a written grievance and response (without a meeting). The Company can discuss which option is easiest at the time.


Cost orders are daunting but hopefully as this isn't vexatious or misconceived we will avoid them.

Am not sure whether to tackle it myself or pay for an employment lawyer. I have some court and law experience due to my previous job and degree (forensics - jack of all trades, master of none) but that was an area I was comfortable with so would be nervous about blowing it

[Openlaw15]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

@Openlaw15, there are only 2 stages open if they follow their handbook

Stage 2
Write to the employee's senior Manager setting out your grievance in full (please include copies of any relevant documents, dates, and names of individuals involved). The Company will invite the employee to a meeting to discuss the grievance, and will try to resolve matters to the employee's satisfaction. The employee must take all reasonable steps to attend the meeting. It may be necessary for the Company to carry out an investigation into your grievance. The amount ofany investigation required will depend on the nature of the allegations and will vary from case to case. It may involve interviewing and taking statements from the employee and any witnesses, and/or reviewing relevant documents. The employee must co-operate fully and promptly in any investigation. This may include informing the Company of the names of any relevant witnesses, disclosing any relevant documents to the employee and attending interviews, as part of the Company's investigation. The Company may initiate an investigation before holding a grievance meeting where it considers this appropriate. In other cases the Company may hold a grievance meeting before deciding what investigation (if any) to carry out. In those cases the Company will hold a further grievance meeting with the employee after the Company's investigation and before the Company reaches a decision.
After the meeting, the Company will write to the employee with the outcome of the grievance. The letter will include a reminder of the employee's right to appeal if he or she is not satisfied with the outcome.
Stage 3
If the employee wishes to appeal, he or she must write to the Human Resources Director within seven working days of receiving the stage 2 decision. The employee's appeal letter must set out the reasons for his/her appeal.
The Company will invite the employee to attend an appeal meeting with the Human Resources Director when his/her grievance and reasons for appealing will be discussed further. The Company will remind you of your right to be accompanied.
After the meeting, the Company will write to you with its final decision. All grievances will be dealt with effectively and quickly wherever it is practicable to do so.
There is no further appeal from this decision.




After Termination Of Employment
If the employee wishes to lodge a grievance after his or her employment has ended, the Company can either go through stages 2 and 3 above, or can agree to deal with matters on the basis of a written grievance and response (without a meeting). The Company can discuss which option is easiest at the time.


Cost orders are daunting but hopefully as this isn't vexatious or misconceived we will avoid them.

Am not sure whether to tackle it myself or pay for an employment lawyer. I have some court and law experience due to my previous job and degree (forensics - jack of all trades, master of none) but that was an area I was comfortable with so would be nervous about blowing it

If he is permitted a grievance hearing, go in with him - you can do this by law: Employment Relations Act 1999. I think they'll stretch this out knowing you only have 3 months to make a claim, so could go through stages 2 and 3, rather than 'written grievance without hearing?' What would you prefer, incidentally? Could be good practice for you where you choose to self represent (litigant in person). The stats are good for costs orders not being permitted: 0.5% of 60,000 of actual costs orders issued, apparently. In real terms, 300 to date, per 600,000. This doesn't include the attempts though.

[Jojo71]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

If he is permitted a grievance hearing, go in with him - you can do this by law: Employment Relations Act 1999. I think they'll stretch this out knowing you only have 3 months to make a claim, so could go through stages 2 and 3, rather than 'written grievance without hearing?' What would you prefer, incidentally? Could be good practice for you where you choose to self represent (litigant in person). The stats are good for costs orders not being permitted: 0.5% of 60,000 of actual costs orders issued, apparently. In real terms, 300 to date, per 600,000. This doesn't include the attempts though.

Not sure my son could face them at the moment (his confidence is so low and he is nervous of them), so a written grievance would be the way forward. Does this just take the form of a letter?

[Openlaw15]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

Not sure my son could face them at the moment (his confidence is so low and he is nervous of them), so a written grievance would be the way forward. Does this just take the form of a letter?

I don't know if it's the employer's decision for the grievance

[Jojo71]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

Have emailed the company and the Training Provider, so will see what comes back

[Jojo71]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

Quick question [MENTION=77627]Openlaw15[/MENTION] the contract they got my son to sign was a fixed term contract and these are inapplicable for apprentices as their regulations do not apply to apprentices, what is the legal status of this contract??

[matt3942]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

[MENTION=66751]Jojo71[/MENTION] - All apprenticeship contracts are for a fixed period - the duration required to complete the apprenticeship.

The confusion arises because apprentices are not employees with fixed-term contracts - they are not covered by the provisions of the Fixed-Term Employee (Prevention of Less Favourable Treatment) Regulations 2002.

[Jojo71]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

Hi [MENTION=67649]matt3942[/MENTION], thank you, I asked because the dismissal letter made reference to the fact it was specifically a fixed term contract, so was wondering if it rendered it invalid as the regulations don't cover apprentices.

[matt3942]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

[MENTION=66751]Jojo71[/MENTION] - The fixed term nature of the contract doesn't make it any easier for an employer to dismiss an apprentice so I'm not sure how they think they're using that to their advantage. I'll have to re-read the dismissal letter.