Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

[Openlaw15]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

@Openlaw15 if they were to argue unteachable, who defines what unteachable is.

Another argument to dismiss that defence is it was never mentioned in his dismissal letter and has never been mentioned or documented before

we can discuss tomorrow, try not to worry.. am just keeping you sharp..go and relax, law is tiring. enjoy your evening

[Jojo71]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

[MENTION=77627]Openlaw15[/MENTION], thank you. Quite enjoyed it, not had to think like that for a while. Enjoy your evening too

[matt3942]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

The information provided by the CIPD website is a very accurate interpretation of the law.

As for who defines 'unteachable', the employer would have to demonstrate that the apprentice has committed a series of serious misconducts that rendered him unteachable, which would appear to not be the case. The employer can't simply decide that, and not liking his attitude would not be sufficient justification.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

The information provided by the CIPD website is a very accurate interpretation of the law.

As for who defines 'unteachable', the employer would have to demonstrate that the apprentice has committed a series of serious misconducts that rendered him unteachable, which would appear to not be the case. The employer can't simply decide that, and not liking his attitude would not be sufficient justification.

In my view, there is no such thing as a very accurate interpretation of law, except the actual judgement itself. If the case has EWCA then a number, same with...EWHC... UKSC, it is an actual legally binding judgement...these are called neutral judgements. If there are the letters, ie ALL ER ..WLR...these are just reports of the case. This why cases uses two citations... the neutral and the reports...ie EWCA & unique numbers, and then ALL ER & number, et cetera.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

The information provided by the CIPD website is a very accurate interpretation of the law.

As for who defines 'unteachable', the employer would have to demonstrate that the apprentice has committed a series of serious misconducts that rendered him unteachable, which would appear to not be the case. The employer can't simply decide that, and not liking his attitude would not be sufficient justification.

Matt, I do not sugar-coat the law.....I am no lawyer, but my view is no lawyer should ever sugar-coat the law.....they should cite the law and the case principal as it stands. Trust me, am no conservative by any means, am rather more left than I am right. However, my view of the law will never be more than what it was intended by the judge who provides the ratio decidendi. The ratio stands in the aforesaid case and that is the employer may well have a defence by arguing Jojo's son is 'unteachable,' as the law will support the employer. So, I have already provided my opinion as to what Jojo needs to do.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

@Openlaw15 if they were to argue unteachable, who defines what unteachable is.

Another argument to dismiss that defence is it was never mentioned in his dismissal letter and has never been mentioned or documented before

Playing devil's advocate again, some things may not be immediately obvious, for instance the employer gives the employee, apprentice the benefit of the doubt. So, some cases may not be that straight forward in that the employer may not have yet come to the realisation that the employee is not suitable until a later time. Try to put yourself in the employer's shoes - as this is the objective view. Imagine you're not Jojo, the mother of the affected son. You're an independent business owner, a bystander, can see what's going on, you (this hypothetical person) may share some characteristics that Jojo has - but you do not have her 'personality', her character etc. You may in fact may not necessarily be female, the more distance from the actual affected person the hypothetical person is, the better it is to be objective, in my view anyway. In law, we call this the 'reasonable person.'...extends to reasonable business.. does not mean reasonable in the normal sense therefore. What would the objective bystander think who is not emotionally and personally affected, this is how lawyers have to think. Rely on your skills of critical analysis, which you acquired through your expertise as a forensics specialist. Pull the facts apart (metaphorically speaking), turn the material facts on their sides....what do you see, why do you see it? What would someone else see, why would they see it. This is what lawyers have to do.

[matt3942]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

That article was written by an employment law associate with 9 years' experience - no-one is sugarcoating the law.

The employer may argue that; however, in accordance with the law, based on current case law, as reflected in the article I posted, the employer will have to demonstrate severe misconduct that rendered the apprentice unteachable, which - based on the reasons for dismissal, provided by the employer - is not the case.

Given you have said the facts in a case are irrelevant, and there is no such thing as an accurate interpretation of the law, I have no difficulty believing you're not a lawyer.

[matt3942]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

That's a good lesson on the reasonable man standard, but doesn't answer the question.

Again, the employer cannot simply decide at a later date that the apprentice is unsuitable, there are no probationary periods. The employer has an obligation to continue with the apprentice, unless the apprentice renders himself unteachable, which (again) is not the case here.

[wales01man]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

Forgetting the law , does the OPs son want to go back to this employer? bringing a case to any court will involve both side the son telling one thing and employer telling what may be a load of bull no doubt making the apprentice? out to be as the say un teachable even to the extent of using witnesses who may be lying it becomes a verbal fight the employer trying to avoid paying anything .
time for OP and son to think hard if they are 100% sure they can beat the employer go for it it will not be easy im betting seems like the employer will fight dirty

[Openlaw15]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

That article was written by an employment law associate with 9 years' experience - no-one is sugarcoating the law.

The employer may argue that; however, in accordance with the law, based on current case law, as reflected in the article I posted, the employer will have to demonstrate severe misconduct that rendered the apprentice unteachable, which - based on the reasons for dismissal, provided by the employer - is not the case.

Given you have said the facts in a case are irrelevant, and there is no such thing as an accurate interpretation of the law, I have no difficulty believing you're not a lawyer.

This is why debating with people bores me because they have to make things personal. Argue the point, provide a coherent and cogent interpretation of the law. When you act emotional, the debate is lost. This is why law is not for you, as you possess a 1 dimensional view of the law, a nice, palatable, comfortable, rigid, interpretation. Au contraire, common law needs to be flexible and this is why there are binding precedents, therein ratio decidendi/s because if the facts were the same in every case, it could never be argued as a precedent. This why there is the alternative distinguishing treatment of precedents. However, not every case fact/s will be distinguishable from the precedent's case facts for the same reasons.

[matt3942]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

We discussed the possibility of reinstatement earlier in the thread, and the OP is going to discuss this option with her son.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

That article was written by an employment law associate with 9 years' experience - no-one is sugarcoating the law.

The employer may argue that; however, in accordance with the law, based on current case law, as reflected in the article I posted, the employer will have to demonstrate severe misconduct that rendered the apprentice unteachable, which - based on the reasons for dismissal, provided by the employer - is not the case.

Given you have said the facts in a case are irrelevant, and there is no such thing as an accurate interpretation of the law, I have no difficulty believing you're not a lawyer.

If the person has never done a law degree, more than that, actually acquired the academic and practical skills that law should provide its beneficiary, then how can the whomever - regardless of any titles that others bestow on them - ever really come to know or even understand the beautiful nature of law. It's not just about reading law...it's coming to know law as your friend, as it were.

[wales01man]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

If the person has never done a law degree, more than that, actually acquired the academic and practical skills that law should provide its beneficiary, then how can the whomever - regardless of any titles that others bestow on them - ever really come to know or even understand the beautiful nature of law. It's not just about reading law...it's coming to know law as your friend, as it were.

Why are you not practising law or in the legal profession OL you seem to know a lot but sorry to say you argue a lot with others on here

[matt3942]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

[MENTION=77627]Openlaw15[/MENTION] - I did not make things personal, I simply reiterated what you had said already.

You're right, the law is not for me, I like to establish the facts in a case, and ensure I'm interpreting and applying the law (statute and case) correctly.

- - - Updated - - -

The person who wrote that article DOES have a law degree and is actually working in the field of law, as an associate.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

That's a good lesson on the reasonable man standard, but doesn't answer the question.

Again, the employer cannot simply decide at a later date that the apprentice is unsuitable, there are no probationary periods. The employer has an obligation to continue with the apprentice, unless the apprentice renders himself unteachable, which (again) is not the case here.

Why have you not been able to play devil's advocate, to sharpen jojo's cognitive skills? Why is it that I had to do it? I'll tell you why because to me it is second nature. Jojo said, she has never had to think like this for a long time.' Yes, and this is what lawyers have to do is think, think, think....a lawyer has to be able to see both sides. If Jojo does not acquire this skill if she choose to represent her son at the tribunal, or understand how the opponent's lawyer thinks, the articulate and experienced employment law solicitor will pull her case apart, will have the effect of gagging her...as her previous arguments were just not persuasive enough. I know how lawyers think, they're skilled in being cool, calm, calculating machines....they don't get emotional - as emotionality wins no prize. They're professional and will be thinking 4 or 5 questions ahead of the one they're using to cross examine the employee/ Jojo's son.