Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

[Jojo71]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

Just checked their employee handbook and there is no reference to requesting personal data held by the company. When we send the query in about raising a grievance, we will ask for a copy of my son's appraisal in the follow up and see what happens . I will see what we get back from the training provider just by sending an email. If we don't get what we need I'll send a formal SAR.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

As I stated, the subject access request would be made to the training provider, NOT the employer. These are two separate entities. The training provider may try to stretch it out, but (knowing the typical content of these documents well) there are no foreseeable reasonable grounds on which it can refuse.

It's possible the provider will inform the employer as it affects their interests, I wonder if this is privacy of contract. The provider is likely to say, the first port of all call is with the employer.

[matt3942]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

It may very well say that but it still won't have reasonable grounds to refuse a subject access request. Typically, the documents I referred to are processed and retained by the training provider (not the employer) for which they should be registered with the ICO.

[Jojo71]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

Although if asked in an email they may just confirm the state of play especially if they've managed to speak to my son's employer, so we would have some evidence while waiting for the SAR to materialise

[Openlaw15]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

Hi,

my son started his apprenticeship at the end of May. His learning mentor has only been to see him once (they are supposed to come every month). He has been thrown in at the deep end is often left without support. Friday was one such day, he was sent off to pick up a vehicle and there were numerous issues with it when he got there. His manager was on leave and the other people he could contact were unavailable. He was worried about making a mistake and it all became very stressful but he dealt with it correctly. When he got back the senior person in charge told him to take his lunch break even though it was after lunch. He went on his lunch and came back, as it wasn't busy the senior person in charge said he could go home early (it was approx an hour early).

Today he went in as normal and he asked his manager if he'd heard about Friday and it instigated a chat. During this chat his manager said 'I don't think this is working, I don't feel like you're going to improve and I don't think this position is right for you.' To which my son replied 'I do want this position and I will improve given more time.' To which his manager repeated what he had said before, several times until he eventually said 'go home'. My son was a bit bewildered by this as it appears to have come out of nowhere. My son asked if he could have a meeting with his mentor and his manager and his manager refused and said 'I just don't think it's working'. So my son asked 'what happens now' to which he said 'I'll take you back to your car and you go home.' My son then contacted personnel who were unaware of what was happening but said 'as he was in his probationary period the manger could do that'.

He has come home and I asked to look at his apprenticeship agreement, he hasn't got one. I looked at his contract and they have given him a fixed term contract in which his job title has been given as Apprentice Sales Consultant (Business).

My understanding was that all apprentices should have an Apprenticeship Agreement. I feel as though they have given him the fixed term contract to circumvent the protection apprenticeships afford.

I just wondered where he stood legally as he's been left in limbo.

Many thanks
Jo

Training is compulsory part of an Apprenticeship, which college does he attend for 'vocational' qualification? How long is the apprenticeship for?

[Jojo71]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

[MENTION=77627]Openlaw15[/MENTION] the apprenticeship is for 12 months and he is completing an NVQ with a mentor from the Learning Provider that originally advertised the post. The training was taking place in the workplace. There was additional training provided by the employer but that was not for a formal qualification

[Openlaw15]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

@Openlaw15 the apprenticeship is for 12 months and he is completing an NVQ with a mentor from the Learning Provider that originally advertised the post. The training was taking place in the workplace. There was additional training provided by the employer but that was not for a formal qualification

What level was the NVQ, incidentally? 12 months doesn't seem a terribly long time. What would have been the eventual title? is Consultant Salesperson? What would be level of remuneration (pay) once your son had qualified?

[matt3942]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

12-months is the minimum duration required for an apprentice aged 16-18, and is typical of most training providers. Having looked at the information provided, it seems the apprenticeship was an Intermediate Apprenticeship (Level 2) in Vehicle Sales, and the job title was Apprentice Sales Consultant.

The title and remuneration post-completion are not relevant. Apprenticeship contracts tend to be for a fixed-duration (as in this case) as there is no legal obligation for the employer to provide permanent employment on completion of the apprenticeship. Legally, the apprentice would be made redundant (for some other substantial reason, i.e. completion of the apprenticeship), and the apprenticeship contract would be terminated.

On a side note - as we inadvertently discovered who the employer was in an earlier comment - this a quote from the employer on the launch of their apprenticeship programme: "People are at the heart of this business, so we wanted to introduce an Apprenticeship Programme where we could take young people with potential and turn them into motor trade professionals."

[Openlaw15]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

12-months is the minimum duration required for an apprentice aged 16-18, and is typical of most training providers. Having looked at the information provided, it seems the apprenticeship was an Intermediate Apprenticeship (Level 2) in Vehicle Sales, and the job title was Apprentice Sales Consultant.

The title and remuneration post-completion are not relevant. Apprenticeship contracts tend to be for a fixed-duration (as in this case) as there is no legal obligation for the employer to provide permanent employment on completion of the apprenticeship. Legally, the apprentice would be made redundant (for some other substantial reason, i.e. completion of the apprenticeship), and the apprenticeship contract would be terminated.

On a side note - as we inadvertently discovered who the employer was in an earlier comment - this a quote from the employer on the launch of their apprenticeship programme: "People are at the heart of this business, so we wanted to introduce an Apprenticeship Programme where we could take young people with potential and turn them into motor trade professionals."

What remedy does jojo want for her son? Is it damages, or reinstatement?

[Jojo71]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

[MENTION=77627]Openlaw15[/MENTION] it was an Intermediate level 2 apprenticeship, initially it was for 24 months but as my son already had a level 3 qualification they shortened it to 12 months as they didn't anticipate any problem in him passing.

I initially wanted him reinstating but after hearing what had gone on in the workplace with the manager's knowledge I don't think this is advisable. I also don't want it on my son's record that he's been dismissed from a post especially when some of the problems came from how he was treated.

It is possible as the company has several sites doing similar things, they could put him in another branch as long as he would have no contact with the people who victimised him. Otherwise it would be damages and making sure that there are better processes in place so that no young person is faced with what my son was faced with.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

@Openlaw15 it was an Intermediate level 2 apprenticeship, initially it was for 24 months but as my son already had a level 3 qualification they shortened it to 12 months as they didn't anticipate any problem in him passing.

I initially wanted him reinstating but after hearing what had gone on in the workplace with the manager's knowledge I don't think this is advisable. I also don't want it on my son's record that he's been dismissed from a post especially when some of the problems came from how he was treated.

It is possible as the company has several sites doing similar things, they could put him in another branch as long as he would have no contact with the people who victimised him. Otherwise it would be damages and making sure that there are better processes in place so that no young person is faced with what my son was faced with.

yes, the tribunal could allocate him elsewhere within the company's business. What would be useful is obtaining a key case to test the law and suitable remedies.

[matt3942]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

I agree. You may consider drafting a response to the employer akin to a grievance, outlining the issues. I would send this to the employer's head office, to the HR director directly, not to the branch manager. If your son would be happy to be re-instated at another branch you should give them this option as they may consider it to be preferable to a potential hefty sum for damages.

- - - Updated - - -

The case often referred to is Dunk V George Waller and Son [1970] 2 All ER 630; however, there are probably more recent cases.

[Jojo71]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

Thanks [MENTION=67649]matt3942[/MENTION] it's quite difficult to find case law, will have a look for that one.

I will have a chat with my son, I think that reallocation is a possible solution it would depend how comfortable he feels with it. I know his confidence has been dented by what has happened and not sure if he could trust the company

[Openlaw15]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

I agree. You may consider drafting a response to the employer akin to a grievance, outlining the issues. I would send this to the employer's head office, to the HR director directly, not to the branch manager. If your son would be happy to be re-instated at another branch you should give them this option as they may consider it to be preferable to a potential hefty sum for damages.

- - - Updated - - -

The case often referred to is Dunk V George Waller and Son [1970] 2 All ER 630; however, there are probably more recent cases.

The case Dunk (1970, CA) is the best case apparently, up to date (2016) according to a Westlaw (legal database) Insight article. It was the case I was going to post and quote, before you did. Under Dunk (case), the Court of Appeal, provides the necessary legal principles, which in effect were/ are: where the employee on an Apprenticeship course has been unfairly dismissed, he is entitled to contract damages for the rest of the period, and damages for losing the opportunity, effectively. I studied tort law, it sounds very much like Tort where damages are far greater than normal contract.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

I agree. You may consider drafting a response to the employer akin to a grievance, outlining the issues. I would send this to the employer's head office, to the HR director directly, not to the branch manager. If your son would be happy to be re-instated at another branch you should give them this option as they may consider it to be preferable to a potential hefty sum for damages.

- - - Updated - - -

The case often referred to is Dunk V George Waller and Son [1970] 2 All ER 630; however, there are probably more recent cases.

The employer has a defence if he can argue that jojo's son was unteachable: Learoyd v Brook [1891] 1 Q.B. 431