Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

[matt3942]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

What you have described is an apprenticeship - it doesn't matter how it is funded.

As I've said previously, this was an apprenticeship provided by a training provider and funded by the Skills Funding Agency, and the training provider will have evidence of that - e.g. an enrolment form, individualised learning plan (detailing the apprenticeship framework elements), and an individualised learner record (detailing the apprenticeship framework elements for funding purposes) - all of which can be obtained.

There seems to be little ambiguity here.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

That seems a fair description of an apprenticeship contract that does not comply with ASCLA and so gives the apprentice enhanced protection!

He is not on low wages though. There needs to be evidence an one word 'apprentice' does not prove or disprove a Modern Day Apprenticeship or an alternative. Evidence is key.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

As I've said previously, this was an apprenticeship provided by a training provider and funded by the Skills Funding Agency, and the training provider will have evidence of that - e.g. an enrolment form, individualised learning plan (detailing the apprenticeship framework elements), and an individualised learner record (detailing the apprenticeship framework elements for funding purposes) - all of which can be obtained.

There seems to be little ambiguity here.

So, how does he prove it? Work on proof - every claim - proof .... How does an apprenticeship even if it were of the nature that you believe it to be, materially benefit Jojo's son? What remedy are you seeking, what remedy is jojo seeking, what remedy does jojo's son want. Decide that, then build the case/ claims around it. Have evidence though, is all am saying.

[matt3942]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

I'll just copy and paste one of my previous comments:

"...this was an apprenticeship provided by a training provider and funded by the Skills Funding Agency, and the training provider will have evidence of that - e.g. an enrolment form, individualised learning plan (detailing the apprenticeship framework elements), and an individualised learner record (detailing the apprenticeship framework elements for funding purposes) - all of which can be obtained."

The apprentice, training provider, and employer will have had to sign (at least) the individualised learning plan to confirm the apprenticeship and draw down funding. The training provider may have additional evidence - the employers I work with sign additional documents to confirm an apprenticeship.

[Jojo71]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

[MENTION=77627]Openlaw15[/MENTION] I've attached the apprentice advert removing the company name, this appeared on LinkedIn and my son has an email from the Learning Provider with the advert splashed with all the company logo. The Learning Provider carried out an initial interview and then invited my son to attend the Apprentice open day at this company. My son was offered the job at the end of the day. The company then emailed my son the job offer with job description. The job description and job title are exactly as they appeared in the advert but fails to mention the apprenticeship framework which is in the advert. IMO the company have taken a Fixed Term contract and tried to make it apply in this case, unfortunately Fixed Term Employee regulations exclude apprentices from their provisions. In giving my son this contract and not an apprentice agreement they cannot use a probationary period. I believe (hope) there is enough evidence to prove that the job advertised and offered is an apprenticeship as it is reasonable to make that assumption. There is also the agreement with the Learning Provider (who has received government funding for the training) to provide the NVQ training.

The fundamental mistake the company have made is by not creating an apprenticeship agreement, this would give my son just the normal rights of any employee. With having an apprenticeship contract the employer has to prove that the apprentice is unteachable.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

I'll just copy and paste one of my previous comments:

"...this was an apprenticeship provided by a training provider and funded by the Skills Funding Agency, and the training provider will have evidence of that - e.g. an enrolment form, individualised learning plan (detailing the apprenticeship framework elements), and an individualised learner record (detailing the apprenticeship framework elements for funding purposes) - all of which can be obtained."

The apprentice, training provider, and employer will have had to sign (at least) the individualised learning plan to confirm the apprenticeship and draw down funding. The training provider may have additional evidence - the employers I work with sign additional documents to confirm an apprenticeship.

Which remedy.. which remedy ..which remedy. ?

All of which can be obtained? Prove it ....prove it .... it needs to be in jojo's bundle.... The employer isn't going to admit to anything unless you have prove at the tribunal.

- - - Updated - - -

That seems a fair description of an apprenticeship contract that does not comply with ASCLA and so gives the apprentice enhanced protection!

It's fair description of both types of apprenticeship, is my point - it's too general.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

@Openlaw15 I've attached the apprentice advert removing the company name, this appeared on LinkedIn and my son has an email from the Learning Provider with the advert splashed with all the company logo. The Learning Provider carried out an initial interview and then invited my son to attend the Apprentice open day at this company. My son was offered the job at the end of the day. The company then emailed my son the job offer with job description. The job description and job title are exactly as they appeared in the advert but fails to mention the apprenticeship framework which is in the advert. IMO the company have taken a Fixed Term contract and tried to make it apply in this case, unfortunately Fixed Term Employee regulations exclude apprentices from their provisions. In giving my son this contract and not an apprentice agreement they cannot use a probationary period. I believe (hope) there is enough evidence to prove that the job advertised and offered is an apprenticeship as it is reasonable to make that assumption. There is also the agreement with the Learning Provider (who has received government funding for the training) to provide the NVQ training.

The fundamental mistake the company have made is by not creating an apprenticeship agreement, this would give my son just the normal rights of any employee. With having an apprenticeship contract the employer has to prove that the apprentice is unteachable.

Better, now you're compiling evidence. So, you'll put this as an Appendix or exhibit Doc 1 evidence, in your claim bundle.

[matt3942]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

Yes, all of which can be obtained from the training provider, not the employer - these are two separate entities. If the training provider is not prepared to disclose the documents voluntarily, the apprentice can make a subject access request, which they will not have reasonable grounds to refuse.

We have discussed the possible remedy earlier in the thread.

- - - Updated - - -

It's fair description of both types of apprenticeship, is my point - it's too general.

Both types of apprenticeship?

[Jojo71]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

[MENTION=77627]Openlaw15[/MENTION] I worked in forensics for 10 years so have some experience gathering evidence. It's knowing where to look and what is useful, criminal investigations are much clearer. I wouldn't have thought about the enrolment form from the Learning Provider, so thanks [MENTION=67649]matt3942[/MENTION]

[Openlaw15]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

@Openlaw15 I worked in forensics for 10 years so have some experience gathering evidence. It's knowing where to look and what is useful, criminal investigations are much clearer. I wouldn't have thought about the enrolment form from the Learning Provider, so thanks @matt3942

You could ask the Learning Provider to make a statement, which you can rely on as 'hearsay' evidence. Normal protocol for hearsay evidence is permission. So, you'll likely need to ask permission from the Tribunal to use sources such as third party statements from person who will not be attending/ making representations in person.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

You could ask the Learning Provider to make a statement, which you can rely on as 'hearsay' evidence. Normal protocol for hearsay evidence is permission. So, you'll likely need to ask permission from the Tribunal to use sources such as third party statements from person who will not be attending/ making representations in person.

Deleted, as quoted self, hmm.

[matt3942]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

Don't forget, the subject access request will need to be made by your son, and you should make specific mention of the documents I listed above, or their equivalents (the training provider may call them something else).

[Openlaw15]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

@Openlaw15 I worked in forensics for 10 years so have some experience gathering evidence. It's knowing where to look and what is useful, criminal investigations are much clearer. I wouldn't have thought about the enrolment form from the Learning Provider, so thanks @matt3942

It's brilliant that you worked in forensics, so you're experienced in evidential matters. As a forensics specialist, you'll know that you cannot rely on arguments without sufficient evidence. Criminal evidence validates crimes against the state, so civil evidence proves claim in employment tribunals., ie it's transferrable. So, make reference to your evidence in your statement, and keep to the point. Look for key evidence and use them as aforesaid, but use the best ones that support your son's claim. Do not overwhelm the tribunal with many documents as it's their prerogative to access them or not. You won't get a second go in an appeal.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

Don't forget, the subject access request will need to be made by your son, and you should make specific mention of the documents I listed above, or their equivalents (the training provider may call them something else).

The employer has 40 'working days to respond to a Subject Access Request (SAR).'.. Guess what, the employer will stretch it out, or look for an exception/ exemption under the Data Protection Act.

[matt3942]

Re: Advice regarding apprenticeships needed please

As I stated, the subject access request would be made to the training provider, NOT the employer. These are two separate entities. The training provider may try to stretch it out, but (knowing the typical content of these documents well) there are no foreseeable reasonable grounds on which it can refuse.