Help!! Company claiming I have been overpaid!!

[Bluey65]

Hi all, first post here!! I have a situation that I need some help with and came here hoping you would be able to help..
I left my job on 1/7/16 giving them 1 months written notice, My holiday started in April and I took 10 days (Im entitled to 21 or 22 - not too sure) from April until I left. I threw my contract and everything associated with my job out (bad move I know). I received a letter yesterday morning saying the following:

When you left our employment on 01/07/2016 you were overpaid by £241.93. Detailed calculation is attached, it shows the difference between amount paid and the amount that you were entitled to.
It then says they would like the amount paid within 7 days from receipt of this letter. On the next page is the breakdown of payments:

	Last Salary Paid JUL16	Correct Salary Entitlement JUL16	Overpaid
PAYMENTS
Basic Pay	0.00	30.51	-30.51
Location Allowance	0.00	3.21	-3.21
Holiday Pay Cash	0.00	1.46	-1.46
Shift Pay Cash	0.00	7.63	7.63
Holiday Pay	(-7.09 Days) 0.00	-284.13	284.13
GROSS PAY	0.00	-241.32	241.32
DEDUCTIONS
Paye	0.00	0.00	0.00
Nat Ins	0.00	0.00	0.00
Auto Pens EES	0.00	0.61	-0.61
Total Deductions	0.00	0.61	-0.61
NET PAY	0.00	-241.93	241.93

Bearing in mind they still haven't even sent me my last pay slip from June!! Im confused as I can not see how I owe them this?? Do companies hound you for this amount?? And what are the chances they take me to court over this amount??
This has totally shocked me if I am honest and made me anxious and on edge...I appreciate all answers as I am a bit baffled with the situation.

Thank You

[mariefab]

Re: Help!! Company claiming I have been overpaid!!

The first thing to establish is your actual holiday entitlement.
As you're not sure, you could get email confirmation of your yearly entitlement from your former employer.
They can't seriously expect you to simply pay whatever they demand without proving that it's owed.
Did you just work 3 days a week? Because that would tie in with a holiday entitlement of 21 or 22 days a year.

[Bluey65]

Re: Help!! Company claiming I have been overpaid!!

I have just found out my holiday entitlement for this year was 21 days, And I worked Mon-Fri 3am to 7.30am

[Snoopy1948]

Re: Help!! Company claiming I have been overpaid!!

Difficult to assess the exact situation but I am assuming that you took 10 days holiday, for the current entitlement year, and the company is stating that as such, they have to recover the excess holiday entitlement in the form of cash i.e. you were overpaid, or had an over entitlement to 7.09 days of holiday, and they are trying to recover that off you less apparently, as I see it, one day's pay due for July. Does that sound right?

Did you leave knowing that you had taken excess holiday up and above the entitlement for the first three months of the year?

[mariefab]

Re: Help!! Company claiming I have been overpaid!!

If you worked 5 days a week 21 days holiday is unlawful. So, I must assume that you also had an additional 8 days for bank/public holidays.

If the Company's holiday year runs from 1st April to 31st March and your last working day was 1st July; you will have accrued 7.31 days holiday (based on a total annual holiday entitlement of 29 days).

If you took 12 days holiday (10 booked and the 2 bank holidays in May) you (might) owe them for 4.69 days overtaken. So, I don't know how they came up with 7.09 days.

The potentially good news is the reason that I say might.
Unless there's a clause in your contract (or other signed agreement) stating that they can recover this money you owe them nothing.
So, as you no longer have your documents from this employment, you should get in touch and ask for a copy of whatever signed document they hold that they believe authorises them to demand this payment.

[Bluey65]

Re: Help!! Company claiming I have been overpaid!!

Difficult to assess the exact situation but I am assuming that you took 10 days holiday, for the current entitlement year, and the company is stating that as such, they have to recover the excess holiday entitlement in the form of cash i.e. you were overpaid, or had an over entitlement to 7.09 days of holiday, and they are trying to recover that off you less apparently, as I see it, one day's pay due for July. Does that sound right?

Did you leave knowing that you had taken excess holiday up and above the entitlement for the first three months of the year?

Yes took 10 days holiday for the current entitlement year, and didn't leave knowing I had taken excess holiday, I assumed it didn't matter when you took your holiday - and still cant see how it does as of now!!!, I also didn't know that leaving would affect my pay packet!!!

[Kati]

Re: Help!! Company claiming I have been overpaid!!

[MENTION=26290]mariefab[/MENTION] might be able to advise too (if she sees this tag )

[Bluey65]

Re: Help!! Company claiming I have been overpaid!!

If you worked 5 days a week 21 days holiday is unlawful. So, I must assume that you also had an additional 8 days for bank/public holidays.

If the Company's holiday year runs from 1st April to 31st March and your last working day was 1st July; you will have accrued 7.31 days holiday (based on a total annual holiday entitlement of 29 days).

If you took 12 days holiday (10 booked and the 2 bank holidays in May) you (might) owe them for 4.69 days overtaken. So, I don't know how they came up with 7.09 days.

The potentially good news is the reason that I say might.
Unless there's a clause in your contract (or other signed agreement) stating that they can recover this money you owe them nothing.
So, as you no longer have your documents from this employment, you should get in touch and ask for a copy of whatever signed document they hold that they believe authorises them to demand this payment.

Ok, who should I contact to ask for a copy of a signed document? HR?.... Is it worth ringing the person who sent me the letter and ask them to explain in more detail? I dont want to ring/contact them and sound like I am in the wrong (even though they assume I am at this stage)

[des8]

Re: Help!! Company claiming I have been overpaid!!

Basic advice... when a dispute looms don't ring. Keep all contact in writing.
Send letter requesting info to person who has been writing to you

[mariefab]

Re: Help!! Company claiming I have been overpaid!!

I don't know how large the Company is, so if it has both a payroll and HR department send a copy of your letter to both (by recorded delivery).

You could send something like this...

On 26th August I received a letter from you stating that I had been overpaid holiday pay, requesting payment within 7 days.
While I concede that I took more holiday that had been accrued by 1st July I believe that is was less than the 7.09 days you claim.
Further, I am not aware that you have the required authorisation to lawfully demand this payment.
According to s.14(4) of the Working Time Regulations 1998 and/or s.15 of the Employment Rights Act 1996 you can only claim this payment if you have a previously signed relevant written agreement authorising you to do so.
I no longer have the contractual documents from my period of employment with you. so, if you have a relevant agreement that I signed, please send me a copy to enable me to consider my position.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Help!! Company claiming I have been overpaid!!

Hi all, first post here!! I have a situation that I need some help with and came here hoping you would be able to help..
I left my job on 1/7/16 giving them 1 months written notice, My holiday started in April and I took 10 days (Im entitled to 21 or 22 - not too sure) from April until I left. I threw my contract and everything associated with my job out (bad move I know). I received a letter yesterday morning saying the following:

When you left our employment on 01/07/2016 you were overpaid by £241.93. Detailed calculation is attached, it shows the difference between amount paid and the amount that you were entitled to.
It then says they would like the amount paid within 7 days from receipt of this letter. On the next page is the breakdown of payments:

	Last Salary Paid JUL16	Correct Salary Entitlement JUL16	Overpaid
PAYMENTS
Basic Pay	0.00	30.51	-30.51
Location Allowance	0.00	3.21	-3.21
Holiday Pay Cash	0.00	1.46	-1.46
Shift Pay Cash	0.00	7.63	7.63
Holiday Pay	(-7.09 Days) 0.00	-284.13	284.13
GROSS PAY	0.00	-241.32	241.32
DEDUCTIONS
Paye	0.00	0.00	0.00
Nat Ins	0.00	0.00	0.00
Auto Pens EES	0.00	0.61	-0.61
Total Deductions	0.00	0.61	-0.61
NET PAY	0.00	-241.93	241.93

Bearing in mind they still haven't even sent me my last pay slip from June!! Im confused as I can not see how I owe them this?? Do companies hound you for this amount?? And what are the chances they take me to court over this amount??
This has totally shocked me if I am honest and made me anxious and on edge...I appreciate all answers as I am a bit baffled with the situation.

Thank You

I agree with what the beagles are saying. The company could have legally deducted any overpayments before giving your final payment. So, unless they prove the amount as to how the over-payment accrued, I would not part with a penny. At best, the employer can take your court for £241 but given a court application costs £255, not to mention an expensive lawyer's times, there's not a whole lot the employer can do. The section 15, Employments Rights Act 1996 permits the employer to claim under contract or other affecting law, so claims are possible at the local County Court. To remedy this, ask the employer to prove the amount and then come to an agreement to pay the amount back in sums that you can afford. You may have left your job for good reasons furthermore, which may give rise to a claim for constructive dismissal via the employment tribunal; or you make a counter-claim at court for vexatious litigant (unreasonable prospects to bring a claim against you). The employer cannot just simply force you to give said amount in 7 days just because they write a letter saying they can. Even if a solicitor had written it, bully for them! Unless they drag you to court, how the heck are they going to do it?

[mariefab]

Re: Help!! Company claiming I have been overpaid!!

The company could have legally deducted any overpayments before giving your final payment.

As with the demand for payment, the Company could only lawfully deduct the overpayment from Bluey's wages if a relevant agreement exists authorising them to do so.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Help!! Company claiming I have been overpaid!!

As with the demand for payment, the Company could only lawfully deduct the overpayment from Bluey's wages if a relevant agreement exists authorising them to do so.

I am not talking about (lawful) deductions, which are dealt with at section 13, Employment Rights Act 1996, in this instance. The matters I relate to herein are to do with the employer's section 15, ERA 1996 rights. For the claim, if there is a clause in the contract or in company procedure, which there likely will be, the employer can make a claim. Alternatively, if Bluey were to authorise them, the same right applies to the employer: section 15, ERA 1996. In Bluey's employ contract, he's likely to have alternatively authorised the company: s.15, ERA. A shrewd lawyer would have drafted that employ contract to ensure all claims/ avenues were/ are water-tight for the employer's benefit.

[mariefab]

Re: Help!! Company claiming I have been overpaid!!

A shrewd lawyer would have drafted that employ contract to ensure all claims/ avenues were/ are water-tight for the employer's benefit.

You might be surprised to discover how often this doesn't happen.
I've seen quite a few contracts (including my own) that just have a general clause about recouping overpayments and/or other debts due to the employer.

That kind of clause would be insufficient in this case for 2 reasons.
1. To be enforceable the clause would need to specifically relate to overtaken holiday.
2. There was no actual overpayment here.

[mariefab]

Re: Help!! Company claiming I have been overpaid!!

I assumed it didn't matter when you took your holiday - and still cant see how it does as of now!!!

You are right!

Your employer didn't mistakenly pay you holiday pay when you weren't entitled to it.
You requested the holidays, the employer agreed to you taking them and then paid you the correct amount of holiday pay when you took them. So, they didn't overpay you at that, or any other, time.

The leading case law on this is Hill v Chapell.
It doesn't matter that the case refers to s.13 deductions rather than s.15 payments as these two sections effectively mirror each other.

http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup...method=boolean

Therefore, the only real issue is whether they have the required authorisation of a written relevant agreement.
This could be a clause stating that they can recover overtaken holiday pay in;
A contract of employment,
a statement of particulars,
a collective agreement,
the Company handbook if it's terms are expressly incorporated into the contract or,
any other relevant agreement signed by you.
If they can't produce any of the above they have no claim.