Is lying at employment tribunal a fraud?

[AuntMay]

Hello again.

Not sure if this is in the right section as it is about fraud as well as employment tribunals. I lost my case at tribunal a few months back and the reason I lost was because the employer lied in court about things in my employee file such as training. I disputed these things in court but the judge believed the employer even though no employee files were disclosed. I had no grounds to appeal the decision so left it at that.

I know lying in court is perjury but as the lies prevented me from getting the financial award I should have got, was it also fraud?

I did a subject access request but was only supplied partial employee records, of which none show the training which the employer said in court I had done. I know the complete records would not show this training either as I never did it. Training was a major factor in whether I won or lost the case.

Did the employer commit fraud by lying about my training and what are the chances of the police investigating this as they do have the powers to access my full employee records. At minimum the sum involved is 12 months wages which amounts to £18,000.

Thank in advance for your time.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Is lying at employment tribunal a fraud?

Hello again.

Not sure if this is in the right section as it is about fraud as well as employment tribunals. I lost my case at tribunal a few months back and the reason I lost was because the employer lied in court about things in my employee file such as training. I disputed these things in court but the judge believed the employer even though no employee files were disclosed. I had no grounds to appeal the decision so left it at that.

I know lying in court is perjury but as the lies prevented me from getting the financial award I should have got, was it also fraud?

I did a subject access request but was only supplied partial employee records, of which none show the training which the employer said in court I had done. I know the complete records would not show this training either as I never did it. Training was a major factor in whether I won or lost the case.

Did the employer commit fraud by lying about my training and what are the chances of the police investigating this as they do have the powers to access my full employee records. At minimum the sum involved is 12 months wages which amounts to £18,000.

Thank in advance for your time.

Lying is a very subjective word. If you omitted (left out) some stuff to a general question that's not lying. If you broadly answered a general question that's not lying. If you blatantly tell an untruth or give an untruth answer, to a specific question this is a lie. Fraud requires a lie for a gain or another's loss, generally. So in my view, it's very unlikely to be fraud as fraud normally relates to deceit for money or asset, ie something worth committing fraud. Fraud is a criminal offence and the employment tribunal is not a criminal court, its function is to establish whether an employee has a claim not whether an employee is guilty of a criminal offence.

[charitynjw]

Re: Is lying at employment tribunal a fraud?

Hi AuntMay

Is it this issue?
http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...-an-open-mind!

[AuntMay]

Re: Is lying at employment tribunal a fraud?

They blatantly stated verbally and written that I had specific training when they knew I had not. Training was a major factor and they won the case on that lie. Their lies meant a financial loss for me (had they told the truth I would have been awarded at minimum 12 months wages). I understand the tribunal is not a criminal court and I'm not asking the tribunal to decide if the employer was guilty of fraud. The employer lied at tribunal court which, if found to be fraud, would be tried in a criminal court if the police took action.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Is lying at employment tribunal a fraud?

They blatantly stated verbally and written that I had specific training when they knew I had not. Training was a major factor and they won the case on that lie. Their lies meant a financial loss for me (had they told the truth I would have been awarded at minimum 12 months wages). I understand the tribunal is not a criminal court and I'm not asking the tribunal to decide if the employer was guilty of fraud. The employer lied at tribunal court which, if found to be fraud, would be tried in a criminal court if the police took action.

Did you have a lawyer at the time? Did the employer have a lawyer? You should have a copy of the employer's defence before you got to the hearing. Then you could have asked them what evidence do they have to prove that you were trained. It's not likely to be investigated as fraud - it's just an employer defending the actions. If you were in their shoes, you'd do exactly the same.

[charitynjw]

Re: Is lying at employment tribunal a fraud?

In very general terms, as long as a dismissal is procedurally fair, an ET is precluded from substituting their own opinion on whether or not to dismiss for that of the employer.
British Leyland (UK) v Swift [1981] IRLR 91, CA

[AuntMay]

Re: Is lying at employment tribunal a fraud?

We asked where the evidence was at tribunal but the judge said it was reasonable that the employer would know who was trained in what areas and moved us on.

If it were me, I would not have lied in court so no, i would not do exactly the same. If it were me we wouldnt have been in court in the first place.

- - - Updated - - -

Even though lots of procedures were not followed at dismissal, the judge said it was not enough to make it procedurally unfair.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Is lying at employment tribunal a fraud?

We asked where the evidence was at tribunal but the judge said it was reasonable that the employer would know who was trained in what areas and moved us on.

If it were me, I would not have lied in court so no, i would not do exactly the same. If it were me we wouldnt have been in court in the first place.

- - - Updated - - -

Even though lots of procedures were not followed at dismissal, the judge said it was not enough to make it procedurally unfair.

The employer wasn't taking you to a tribunal, you were taking the employer. You can ask the tribunal for a reconsideration as to the point of facts. Ask the tribunal, what the tribunal's rules are in relation to 'evidence' matters, in general and applied to your facts (ie your case), or what tribunal law (Tribunal's Constitution) is there for evidence based on the law and then applied to your facts. For instance what is the law on 'cross examining witnesses such as the employer. In a Court type situation, under Civil Procedure Rules there are provisions to deal fairly with evidence: Part 33 - Evidence & Practice Direction 32 for evidence: http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/pro...rt32/pd_part32 In the court, you're entitled to cross examine witnesses under said procedure but you have been deprived of this right at the tribunal. So, you should ask for a reconsideration as it is in your view, an abuse of process (ie undue process). It's potentially illegal in the civil sense therefore, ie ultra vires (outside power).

[Openlaw15]

Re: Is lying at employment tribunal a fraud?

In very general terms, as long as a dismissal is procedurally fair, an ET is precluded from substituting their own opinion on whether or not to dismiss for that of the employer.
British Leyland (UK) v Swift [1981] IRLR 91, CA

It must be procedurally clear though and not be contradictory to the facts, ie the company policy on one thing must be the same in action, ie applied to the employee's situation:' Liberty Living plc v Reid (2010) EAT (Case No.0039/10).

[charitynjw]

Re: Is lying at employment tribunal a fraud?

It must be procedurally clear though and not be contradictory to the facts, ie the company policy on one thing must be the same in action, ie applied to the employee's situation:' Liberty Living plc v Reid (2010) EAT (Case No.0039/10).

As is often the case, we are not privy to the facts; we don't even know whether the PoC of the instant case was unfair dismissal, constructive dismissal or something else.
So all we can do, given the sparsity of info, is generalise.

[AuntMay]

Re: Is lying at employment tribunal a fraud?

Civil Procedure Rules there are provisions to deal fairly with evidence: Part 33 - Evidence & Practice Direction 32 for evidence: http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/pro...rt32/pd_part32

Thank you for the link. I wish I knew about this before my tribunal. The employer failed to comply with the deadline for handing in their statements by 3 weeks and the judge let it go. Their statements did not comply with what this document says, for example there was no distinction between what they were stating as fact and what was hearsay or guesswork.

[AuntMay]

Re: Is lying at employment tribunal a fraud?

As is often the case, we are not privy to the facts; we don't even know whether the PoC of the instant case was unfair dismissal, constructive dismissal or something else.
So all we can do, given the sparsity of info, is generalise.

It was for unfair dismissal. Im more interested in the employer lying to the Court in order to win the case and avoid paying any compensation. I always believed that lying for financial gain, or to cause a loss to someone else, was fraud. They lied to cause me a loss but from what I'm understanding here, it will not be classed as fraud.

[charitynjw]

Re: Is lying at employment tribunal a fraud?

Thank you for the link. I wish I knew about this before my tribunal. The employer failed to comply with the deadline for handing in their statements by 3 weeks and the judge let it go. Their statements did not comply with what this document says, for example there was no distinction between what they were stating as fact and what was hearsay or guesswork.

Extending or shortening time

5. The Tribunal may, on its own initiative or on the application of a party, extend or shorten any time limit specified in these Rules or in any decision, whether or not (in the case of an extension) it has expired.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...ragraph/5/made

[Nomoneynoproblem]

Re: Is lying at employment tribunal a fraud?

Surely you can appeal the Tribunal's findings if you feel so strongly about this by going to an EAT (Employment Appeals Tribunal) but to do that the original decision must have been procedually wrong. Did the Respondent provide evidence at the Tribunal the date and time you had the said training.

[charitynjw]

Re: Is lying at employment tribunal a fraud?

Surely you can appeal the Tribunal's findings if you feel so strongly about this by going to an EAT (Employment Appeals Tribunal) but to do that the original decision must have been procedually wrong. Did the Respondent provide evidence at the Tribunal the date and time you had the said training.

We don't yet know what was the employer's stated case for dismissal.