Question re where next after appeal

[Openlaw15]

Re: Question re where next after appeal

Once again openlaw15 thank you for your advice, it helping me to see things a bit more clearer. As I said I realise I am exposed in relation to the last incident due to my own actions and am prepared to accept those consequences. I just needed reassurance that the manner in which they deal with it was not related to other ongoing events, so I know how to defend myself to the best of my ability.

I get what you are saying about the PCP now thank you for your advice on this point.

Again I keep coming back to my naievty in the workplace, this was my first time in employment, there were reasonable adjustments that could have been made at the start of my employment that would have made a significant improvement, had i been aware of them, to overall communication which you quite rightly highlight is my disability.

I feel if there had been some research on my employers behalf in the intial stages of my recruitment/employment, then my relationship with my colleagues and managers/supervisors would have developed in a more positive fashion which may even have avoided the performance issue and the most current incident, i.e. if the relationship was better I might have asked first?. Not sure if this is a defence, but its the truth.

This is why I am asking about where the responsibility for identifying reasonable adjustments lies?

Many thanks

- - - Updated - - -

PS I have had no 121 job chats with line manager/supervisor or appraisals since commencement, not sure if that is relevant also.

I did ask for them in December

Your first time in employment you say, but do you mean you first time in any employment? May I ask how old you are, Jay? Communication though is not really a PCP for your job. If you worked in a job giving advice communication would be the PCP. Jay I am sorry but you have just been very unfortunate in the way that you have been treated less than you deserve perhaps owing to your disability. Let's forget the PCP as this just relates to an employer's broad duties to disabled persons in terms of reasonable adjustments. For the same reasons let's also move away from reasonable adjustments. When we deduct the PCP and reasonable adjustments' issues we're still left with your unfavourable treatment and there does not appear to be any other reason for the below par treatment except your disability. I have revised my view and believe is this constructive disability discrimination which is not so obvious hence the lawyer and CAB not being alert to it, or missing this very subtle discrimination. It is not just victimisation as this is too broad a discrimination, it therefore disability discrimination. It is just my view am not qualified lawyer but I have studied a law degree. Normally a tribunal would set a preliminary hearing to see if you have a disability but in your case it is not likely. Your hurdle you have is proving discrimination. You could argue that there was a breakdown in communication when compared to a comparator company and their professional staff. There have likely been lots of procedural errors with company policy or omissions in relation to the Equality Act. You were not inducted at the new site, you were omitted translators during meetings. The Equality law where it had been in place in your employ and based on your facts would have been reasonable adjustments (forget PCP....it's not the same issue) in any type of meetings, for appraisal, grievance, appeal, not inductions, to put you in the same position as though you did not have the affective disability. Were the managers/ staff speaking too fast? Could you haven taken, and did you take, notes of what was being said in any face to contact you had with the company? Were any reasons given for not providing an interpreter? The defence, as aforesaid, for the employer is the questionable legal activity. However, it's not the company's main business, it's just a by-product that the company uses. In addition, there were also no material losses for the company so there would likely have been no evidence to make a prosecution in terms of theft. Contact ACAS and use some of the ideas I have presented here with a view to considering a tribunal hearing for disability discrimination. 3 months from last act of discrimination is time limit.

[jay69477]

Re: Question re where next after appeal

Hi Openlaw15, im 26, and yes this is my first ever proper contracted employment in my chosen field. There has been the odd 2 weeks unpaid work here and weeks trial here and I even tried self employment for a while. It took me 6 years to get this job after submitting hundereds if not thousands of applications.

Its a funny turn of phrase under the circumstance, but I am happy your opinion has altered slightly, I was begining to think I was going mad and this was all my fault.

Most of the interactions I have with my employer are recorded, generally in pen and paper, and in more formal settings on tape recorded. Some of the pen and paper I have, some my employer has. There are records my line manager has that I had requested a copy of that were never provided. It was in his witness statement he has them, and in my appeal outcome if I want them I should ask him for them. There was no mention that he ever refused to give me them at the time.

The reason for no interpreter has never been established, the question was asked in my grievance and appeal, they simply decided it was not required with hindsight.

With regards to the grievance meeting, I was not aware of my right of witness at the time at a grievance meeting, the company did not make me aware also. I raised this during the appeal process and the point was upheld but deemed not too have disadvantaged me. If I had been aware of this right I would have asked for a reasonable adjustment to be made to allow me to bring a friend to help me keep on topic in the meeting, I know that its guees work now if that adjustment would have been met but doesn't this point itself mean the grievance process was "unfair/procedurally wrong/void/FUBAR, im not sure what the technical term would be

I will try talking to acas again as you suggested and keep you posted of developments.

As I have said before this never was about taking my employer to a tribunal, if by some slim chance I come through the remaining 2 disciplinary processes with my employment intact and an active participiation with ATW takes place and adjustments are made, i think my issue will be addressed, depending on how it is addressed.

However I keep thinking how can I trust them now and do I really want to work for them, my research on this suggest what I am feeling is a loss of trust and confidence in my employer, ironically what you suggest my employers view may be of me at present for different reasons.

If for whatever reason I decide to resign do I have sufficient information to prove this breach of an implied term?

Many thanks

PS whilst I am 26, I have a wise head on my shoulders, albeit I can be a bit naive as to the way the world go's around sometimes

[jay69477]

Re: Question re where next after appeal

Hi Openlaw15, I have sent you an update on events today via private email which might be relevant before you answer the above question

[jay69477]

Re: Question re where next after appeal

hello again, been doing some further reseach following openlaw15 comments above, am I interpreting his/your comments properly? Its not disability discrimination but discrimination arising from a disability I should be arguing.

Also was the what i presume was on oversight regarding the provision of an auxialliary aid and then desicion in hindsight that it was not required, be classed as indirect disability discrimination?

I have a grievance process that has now been concluded and dismissed, 2 pending disciplinary processes. Before I asked for advice on the forum i submitted two further grievances following the instruction from HR, 1 regarding victimisation from my line manager and 1 regarding victimisation from HR department due to numerous procedural failings. I was compelled to submit these as my employer would not take an overall view during the separate processes. I have asked for them to be heard once my employer has dealt with all other outstanding issues in order that I can comment fully on the situations.

I am now thinking I should withdraw these two victimisation grievances and replace them with 1 regarding discrimination arising from disability as that seems to be the main root of all the issues, if so, do I include victimisation by my employer in general in that grievance

Any advice would be great

[Openlaw15]

Re: Question re where next after appeal

hello again, been doing some further reseach following openlaw15 comments above, am I interpreting his/your comments properly? Its not disability discrimination but discrimination arising from a disability I should be arguing.

Also was the what i presume was on oversight regarding the provision of an auxialliary aid and then desicion in hindsight that it was not required, be classed as indirect disability discrimination?

It is disability discrimination claim....i was just analysing your facts as i was going along. I like to think things through and show why i said what i did.

[jay69477]

Re: Question re where next after appeal

Just thought I would update any interested parties.

My current situation is I shall find out next week if I am to be dismissed for a matter of gross misconduct (for the record I was stupid and technically am guilty although my employer has blown it out of all proportion)

I really thought before I came to the forum that basically I had fought and lost on my discrimination points, id even talked to a solicitor who said that I hadn't been discriminated against.

However after being able to pick the brains of openlaw I gained some clarity and after talking to the solicitor again today and using his/her's advice in addition to advice I gleaned reading other forum posts on the site I again talked to the solicitor and he seems finally seems to grasp that my situation actually could be percieved as discrimination.

I still have a long way to go before I can prove anything I appreciate and i still may lose my job down to my stupidity and I may need to live with that, but its not over now for me, whereas I couldnt see the way forward before.

So I just thought a thank you to legalbeagles bods was in order for the advice.

[jay69477]

Re: Question re where next after appeal

UPDATE TO ANY INTERESTED PARTIES

My employer dismissed me today for gross misconduct

I will be appealing the descision as I suspect it was unfair.

I am under two years service so I know I cant bring a tribunal claim saying it was unfair dismissal, but I will be linking the circumstances of my work environment at the time of the allegation to disability discrimimination which should enable me to put this mess to a tribunal for a ruling, if of course my appeal fails.

I do have a query tho, at the start of the disciplinary process I submitted a grievance as I felt the people handling the initial stages were bias as they had previously been involved in grievance and appeals, however the HR department refused to hear the grievance as they felt the issues I were raising were connected to the disciplinary. At this stage I submitted a further letter stating that I wised to lodge a grievance of discrimination but could not give full details until my employer completed all the outstanding processes. They acknowledged receipt of this email.

Therefore my question is now I have been summarily dismissed does my ex employer still have to hear the grievance? And do I need to pursue my employer to hear the grievance regardless at this stage given that I am of the view that this is heading to tribunal?

Any help on these two points would be appreciated

[jay69477]

Re: Question re where next after appeal

ok, so my employer has acknowledged my appeal letter today and it will be held by the Group Legal Counsel of the company. I am ok about this as my case has been taken out of the hands of the HR team at my request, but given the chair of my appeal hearing is a qualified solicitor does anyone have any suggestions as to ways I should be preparing for the meeting.

Openlaw15 your comments would be most helpful as you saw my appeal letter draft

I'm obviously concerned about this, as it is the final stage of the process with my employer prior to a possible tribunal and its a complex case involving disability, victimisation procedural errors, discrimination, gross misconduct, recordings of conversations of those who were unaware they were being recorded etc etc etc etc

For example should I be asking for permission to bring my solicitor along to the meeting, I know solicitors are generally not permitted at this type of meeting but to even the playfield it might be prudent to ask if they will allow it????

[jay69477]

Re: Question re where next after appeal

ok, so my employer has acknowledged my appeal letter today and it will be held by the Group Legal Counsel of the company. I am ok about this as my case has been taken out of the hands of the HR team at my request, but given the chair of my appeal hearing is a qualified solicitor does anyone have any suggestions as to ways I should be preparing for the meeting.

Openlaw15 your comments would be most helpful as you saw my appeal letter draft

I'm obviously concerned about this, as it is the final stage of the process with my employer prior to a possible tribunal and its a complex case involving disability, victimisation procedural errors, discrimination, gross misconduct, recordings of conversations of those who were unaware they were being recorded etc etc etc etc

For example should I be asking for permission to bring my solicitor along to the meeting, I know solicitors are generally not permitted at this type of meeting but to even the playfield it might be prudent to ask if they will allow it????

ps he is not just any old solicitor, he is a former president of the law society :o

[Kati]

Re: Question re where next after appeal

:bump:ing for [MENTION=77627]Openlaw15[/MENTION]

[Openlaw15]

Re: Question re where next after appeal

ok, so my employer has acknowledged my appeal letter today and it will be held by the Group Legal Counsel of the company. I am ok about this as my case has been taken out of the hands of the HR team at my request, but given the chair of my appeal hearing is a qualified solicitor does anyone have any suggestions as to ways I should be preparing for the meeting.

Openlaw15 your comments would be most helpful as you saw my appeal letter draft

I'm obviously concerned about this, as it is the final stage of the process with my employer prior to a possible tribunal and its a complex case involving disability, victimisation procedural errors, discrimination, gross misconduct, recordings of conversations of those who were unaware they were being recorded etc etc etc etc

For example should I be asking for permission to bring my solicitor along to the meeting, I know solicitors are generally not permitted at this type of meeting but to even the playfield it might be prudent to ask if they will allow it????

I don't know what to say really other than what I have told you already. You have the right to have a lawyer present, I believe. Ask you partner alternatively to go with you for emotional support.

[jay69477]

Re: Question re where next after appeal

Hi All,

Ok I attended my appeal hearing today after being dismissed for gross misconduct.

The chair of the appeal did not ask 1 question?

He introcuded himself and his colleague, set the scene asked for my points of appeal which he has had in writing for approx 4 weeks in advance, thanked me and said he would be in touch within 28 days.

Is this normal?

I would have thought that someone chairing an appeal into the dismissal of a disabled employee who is citing his disability as part of the reason for his dismissal may have had some questions to put?