Exchanging documents before a tribunal

[ryanbhoy1984]

Hi,

A bit of background to begin with -

I am in the process of taking my former employer to a tribunal, as I was unfairly selected for redundancy, due to victimisation from a grievance I had filed 18 months earlier, and also for discrimination that has happened to me in my employment since then. I had Judicial Mediation at the start of the month, at which they offered me £15,000 to settle out of court, which I refused. There has been a preliminary hearing arranged for the end of April, to decide whether the case is time barred, and whether I do in fact have a disability.

I have been sent an order for this preliminary hearing, which says that I have to give the Respondent copies of the documents I will rely on for the hearing. Obviously I have a lot of letters and things like that from my Doctor, Psychiatrist etc. that I will have to supply to them, but my query here is if I have stuff that I have sourced from the internet, quotes from documents, and standard practices and things like that, do I have to supply this to them as well? I feel like this will give them an unfair advantage, in that they will be able to see where I am going with my argument. If I am only going to be reading these quotes or sections from documents in the hearing, will I have to give them a copy beforehand? Am I allowed to use any documents that I have not given to the Respondent?

Thanks for reading,

Ryan

[Kati]

Re: Exchanging documents before a tribunal

tagging [MENTION=26290]mariefab[/MENTION] for you xx

[ryanbhoy1984]

Re: Exchanging documents before a tribunal

Thanks Kati. Is Marie some type of expert in this area?

[Kati]

Re: Exchanging documents before a tribunal

Thanks Kati. Is Marie some type of expert in this area?

She's great with advice on employment issues xx

[ryanbhoy1984]

Re: Exchanging documents before a tribunal

Thank you very much. I have a whole load of issues I could use advice on! I have done everything myself, more or less, up until this point, and I am taking on a multi billion pound turnover oil company that is being represented by a "very well regarded" employment solicitor!

[charitynjw]

Re: Exchanging documents before a tribunal

Hi ryanbhoy1984

A word to the wise........
I helped someone at ET some years ago.
As there was a lot of supporting evidence (medical, etc), it was agreed that our 'bundle' would be split, the medical stuff going into a supplementary bundle.
The other party's sols even kindly suggested (in writing) to photocopy it all & submit it to the Tribunal (a PHR).
On the day of the hearing, no supplementary bundle had been given to the Tribunal.......& despite showing proof that their solicitors had taken on the responsibility, the ET judge proceeded without reference to the bundle.
Of course, that part of the claim was thrown out.
Reason? No medical evidence submitted by the claimant.
You couldn't make it up!

[mariefab]

Re: Exchanging documents before a tribunal

If the Tribunal's instruction is that the pre-hearing is solely to deal with time bar and disability you should just disclose the evidence that you intend to rely on to prove those 2 issues.

What kind of 'stuff' from the internet are we talking about?
Legislation and Caselaw that supports your case is good.
General good practice guidelines is not.
Can you give an example of the 'stuff'?

For disability you need to tick the following:
A physical or mental condition
Lasted, or likely to last, at least 12 months
Has a substantial (not trivial), adverse effect on your ability to carry out normal day-to-day tasks

Then you need to prove that your employer knew (because they had been directly informed or had enough information to work out for themselves) that you had a disability before the dates of the incidents that you complain of.

Is the time bar issue related to the disability or did you submit your claim outside the normal time limits?

[ryanbhoy1984]

Re: Exchanging documents before a tribunal

The things I was thinking about bringing with me to the hearing are here - http://www.acas.org.uk/media/pdf/c/p...ry-booklet.pdf, here - http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/p...ancy-decisions. Things like that, examples from websites and things like that I have found. I'm not much good with legislation and case law, that all gets a bit legalese for me.

I think I'm fairly sure I will fit the bill for having a disability, I have a letter from both my doctor and my psychiatrist, plus they were told by their occupational health department in the past that I would "likely be afforded protection under the terms of the Equality Act". They are only willing to accept I had a disability for a period of a month or so, which I find incredulous, as the definition, as you say, is that it has lasted, or likely to last, at least 12 months. I received an email from the tribunal service yesterday in response to one I sent them saying that I would not have to question any medical experts in the hearing, that the reports and letters along with some questioning (from the Judge, or their solicitors? I'm unsure...), should be sufficient.

They definitely were aware, as I had informed them when filing the initial grievance that I considered myself to have a disability, which was then reinforced by their occupational health department. The report from OH did not have any implied time limit on it, i.e. it didn't say he will be afforded protection for this month, then after that he will be well again. It is, to me, a ridiculous position for them to have taken, quite frankly.

The time bar relates to the fact that I raised a Grievance in 2013, and since then I have received no training (direct discrimination), they never implemented any of the recommendations of their OH department which may have improved my condition (failure to make reasonable adjustments), and was ultimately selected for redundancy due to having raised said grievance (victimisation). In my opinion, these are all continuing acts, as I never received any relevant training right up until I was dismissed, they never carried out any of the recommendations of their OH department right up until I was dismissed, and the victimisation can't be time barred, as far as I am aware.

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I also made a number of other claims against them, that they are trying to have thrown out, as there is no reasonable chance of success for them. I assume I shall have to present a case as to why there is a reasonable chance of success at this hearing?

[Openlaw15]

Re: Exchanging documents before a tribunal

Hi,

A bit of background to begin with -

I am in the process of taking my former employer to a tribunal, as I was unfairly selected for redundancy, due to victimisation from a grievance I had filed 18 months earlier, and also for discrimination that has happened to me in my employment since then. I had Judicial Mediation at the start of the month, at which they offered me £15,000 to settle out of court, which I refused. There has been a preliminary hearing arranged for the end of April, to decide whether the case is time barred, and whether I do in fact have a disability.

I have been sent an order for this preliminary hearing, which says that I have to give the Respondent copies of the documents I will rely on for the hearing. Obviously I have a lot of letters and things like that from my Doctor, Psychiatrist etc. that I will have to supply to them, but my query here is if I have stuff that I have sourced from the internet, quotes from documents, and standard practices and things like that, do I have to supply this to them as well? I feel like this will give them an unfair advantage, in that they will be able to see where I am going with my argument. If I am only going to be reading these quotes or sections from documents in the hearing, will I have to give them a copy beforehand? Am I allowed to use any documents that I have not given to the Respondent?

Thanks for reading,

Ryan

Hello Ryan my legal studies include tort law which also concerns the relevant standards for medical professionals, ie the reasonable medical professional. If it is a psychiatric issue the psychiatrist's statement or report is medically qualified to diagnose disability as this derives from the international standards for disease at UN level. If the competence relates to the GP's records of disability this is also proof of a disability. In tort the terms are 'registered medical condition.' The way I understand medical law and standards is the more letters they have after their name the more likely they're qualified to comment on what is a disability, whether this side of the Atlantic or the other (ie USA), or elsewhere in the modern democratic common law countries.

[mariefab]

Re: Exchanging documents before a tribunal

When were you selected for redundancy?
Given that you were one of many up for redundancy; why do you think that your selection was due to the Grievance?
Is your disability a progressive or fluctuating condition?

If you like you can write up your whole story. It would save 20 questions and it would be good practice for your witness statement.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Exchanging documents before a tribunal

Hi,

A bit of background to begin with -

I am in the process of taking my former employer to a tribunal, as I was unfairly selected for redundancy, due to victimisation from a grievance I had filed 18 months earlier, and also for discrimination that has happened to me in my employment since then. I had Judicial Mediation at the start of the month, at which they offered me £15,000 to settle out of court, which I refused. There has been a preliminary hearing arranged for the end of April, to decide whether the case is time barred, and whether I do in fact have a disability.

I have been sent an order for this preliminary hearing, which says that I have to give the Respondent copies of the documents I will rely on for the hearing. Obviously I have a lot of letters and things like that from my Doctor, Psychiatrist etc. that I will have to supply to them, but my query here is if I have stuff that I have sourced from the internet, quotes from documents, and standard practices and things like that, do I have to supply this to them as well? I feel like this will give them an unfair advantage, in that they will be able to see where I am going with my argument. If I am only going to be reading these quotes or sections from documents in the hearing, will I have to give them a copy beforehand? Am I allowed to use any documents that I have not given to the Respondent?

Thanks for reading,

Ryan

Ryan

Quote the statement from your psychiatrist.. as he alone has that medical competence to diagnose you, or alternatively your GP. Has there been any formal diagnoses of your disability by said medical professional, also, what is your disability type specifically? What are its symptoms as per your psychiatrist's statements. Do you use internet sources, well don't unless they're authorative. Look on ACAS website for useful sources where available. For authorative World Health Organisation (WHO)/ medical professional sources on psychiatric type medical problems check this 267 pdf doc, do key term searches etc: http://www.who.int/classifications/i...ebook.pdf?ua=1 Look at the updates too: http://www.who.int/classifications/icd/en/

[ryanbhoy1984]

Re: Exchanging documents before a tribunal

I'll try to write out the gist of my whole story then, give you as much info as possible!

First of all, I live and worked in Scotland, I'm not sure if that makes a great deal of difference, employment law seems to be one area that is largely unaffected by the vagaries of Scots Law!

I was employed by a large oil and gas service company, a multinational, with a multi billion dollar turnover. They decided they would have to make redundancies in February 2015. I was selected for redundancy based on a redundancy scoring matrix, in which I scored the lowest in the company, by quite some margin. This is despite me having been appraised exactly one month earlier, with a good quality appraisal, everything meeting or exceeding job requirements, apart from my attendance, which was weighted very low in the redundancy matrix anyway, so wouldn't have made much of a difference either way. The criteria on the appraisal and the criteria on the redundancy scoring matrix are very similar, a number of them sharing the exact same heading. I had also only recently been promoted into this position, some 3 months prior to this, and received a letter at the time congratulating me on a "well earned promotion". This coupled with the fact that I know most of the other people in the pool and I was far from being the worst employee there!

I had raised a grievance in June 2013, against my then line manager, as she told me I "wouldn't be getting a pay rise or a promotion until your condition improves", which is a verbatim quote! Obviously I wasn't happy with this, so I raised a grievance, which was investigated, and ultimately wasn't upheld, i.e. they found in favour of my manager. One of the outcomes to the grievance, however, was that I would be sent on a training course if it remained relevant to my role (which it did), after the training budget review. I was never sent on this course, despite remaining in the role for over 18 months after that was issued, and a fair number of my peers and colleagues being sent on the very same course.

I was sent to their Occupational Health (OH) department, which they outsource to a medical firm based in Aberdeen. They received 3 reports from OH, 2 of which I was aware of, 1 I only got after I had been made redundant and was trying to get all my documents together. In the first report, a number of recommendations were made to the company (that I could see an Educational Psychologist, that I could be sent for a CT scan, that I should be given regular feedback on my performance), none of which were implemented. The second report told them that I might well be afforded protection under the terms of the Equality Act 2010, and the third was just a general update on the first two.

The HR representative that dealt with the initial grievance, then the redundancy process was the same person throughout, so their initial claims of not knowing about my disability were simply not true, the letters from OH are all addressed to her.

We had a number of emails or statements going back and forth between the two parties initially, in which they have told lies and made up facts, before they engaged a a solicitor, who appear to have a better handle on things that their HR department did, although I think they are still feeding him lies, as he has told a few fibs as well in a statement he made after I submitted better & further particulars, as requested by the judge during a telephone preliminary hearing.

A few other notable points worth mentioning are that I raised a second grievance, after having been selected for redundancy, I felt, due to victimisation, which wasn't looked at, much less investigated, and also that I received a thinly, (or not so thinly) veiled threat from the HR representative about my chances of reemployment should I decide to take my case any further. It is well known that there is a blacklist operated in the oil and gas industry, so I took it to mean "take us to court, you'll find yourself blacklisted".

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There are quite a number of other points, but it would take me all day to catalogue all of the errors they have made in my case!

[ryanbhoy1984]

Re: Exchanging documents before a tribunal

Ryan

Quote the statement from your psychiatrist.. as he alone has that medical competence to diagnose you, or alternatively your GP. Has there been any formal diagnoses of your disability by said medical professional, also, what is your disability type specifically? What are its symptoms as per your psychiatrist's statements. Do you use internet sources, well don't unless they're authorative. Look on ACAS website for useful sources where available. For authorative World Health Organisation (WHO)/ medical professional sources on psychiatric type medical problems check this 267 pdf doc, do key term searches etc: http://www.who.int/classifications/i...ebook.pdf?ua=1 Look at the updates too: http://www.who.int/classifications/icd/en/

I have given both the tribunal service and their solicitors copies of all of the statements I have had from both my doctor and my psychiatrist, and they also have a copy of the report produced by their OH department. It's not enough, it seems. I still have to go to a preliminary hearing to decide the issue.

My disability is depression with anxiety, and mild cognitive impairment. I have suffered from depression and anxiety since my late teens, and I have been on medication since then for both, which keeps it under control for the most part, but discounting the effects of my medication, which is one of the conditions of the definition of having a disability, I would not be able to function on a day to day basis.

I'm certain that I will meet the definition of having a disability, so I'm not overly worried about that, or the time bar issue. To be honest, I think I should breeze through the preliminary hearing, on paper at least. It's just the idea of going up against a well regarded employment lawyer which I'm somewhat apprehensive about. I worry that he will use his knowledge of the finer points of the law to bamboozle me.

[charitynjw]

Re: Exchanging documents before a tribunal

Hi ryanbhoy

Exactly what issues are being dealt with at PHR?

Ie if you are claiming unfair dismissal/disability disrim, is ET just looking at the DD element?

[ryanbhoy1984]

Re: Exchanging documents before a tribunal

As far as I am aware, the preliminary hearing is only to decide whether my claim is time barred, and whether I have a disability or not.

I have claimed unfair dismissal, as well as a number of disability discrimination claims, for direct and indirect discrimination, failure to make reasonable adjustments, and vistimisation, all of which are to be heard at a final hearing, which is to be scheduled sometime after this preliminary hearing.

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Sorry, having reread your question, I believe it is only the discrimination part that is in question, I filed the ET1 form in time for the unfair dismissal part of the claim.