Refused holiday request - can employer do that?

[GinaAnd]

Hello All, I am new to this forum as I am desperate for some help and advice.
Its all about my hubby and his employer. Hubby has been working at this place for almost three years and is only one of the few original employees there.
Basically, hubby has filled in a holiday form for 4 working days at the end of May, starting Thursday, returning back on Wednesday the following week. This sort of holiday request has always been approved in the past and there isnothing in the terms and conditions of his contract that would suggest only certain blocks of days can be booked.
He submitted this request on 26th February and yesterday he got the form backwith the big black NO all over the paper with a post it stating: "Holiday requests will only be accepted for full weeks Mon-Sun".

There has been no formal communication issued that the holiday policy ischanging company wide at all.

Can employer do that out of nothing? Can employee be forced to take such aspecific time off only? What about if you need to go to your kid's sports dayfor a day for example - is it reasonable that your employer asks you take wholeweek's holiday if you only need ONE day off? This whole situation is just crazy and its making so incredibly upset as we all work hard enough to be able to take the bloody time off when we want!

What are you views guys? Can anyone advise way forward? Hubby is not keen toargue the issue but he will have to as this is just so not acceptable.
Thanks for any suggestions.

[mariefab]

Re: Refused holiday request - can employer do that?

You are not going to like this answer.

An employer can lawfully decide when each and every day of holiday entitlement is taken.

OK, they can't say that you can only take holiday on Tuesdays because you are pregnant, disabled, gay etc. or as a punishment for complaining about a health and safety matter, undertaking jury service, alleging they infringed a statutory right etc.
But, for the needs/convenience of the business they have the right to refuse any requests for holidays as long as they permit you to take your full statutory requirement at some point during the year.

[GinaAnd]

Re: Refused holiday request - can employer do that?

You are not going to like this answer.

An employer can lawfully decide when each and every day of holiday entitlement is taken.

OK, they can't say that you can only take holiday on Tuesdays because you are pregnant, disabled, gay etc. or as a punishment for complaining about a health and safety matter, undertaking jury service, alleging they infringed a statutory right etc.
But, for the needs/convenience of the business they have the right to refuse any requests for holidays as long as they permit you to take your full statutory requirement at some point during the year.

Thank you, what you are saying to me I am aware of, with some limit - I don't believe that ALL of the holidays can be dictated by the employer. If what you say is the position for workers in 21st Century that I despair
My hubby works on a 7 days week (55 - 62 hours per week!!! including nights) - so he NEVER knows what his day off is the following week until just Friday evening at the earliest. Now being told he can not get a odd day holiday when needed (sod the want - clearly wanting something is so not this century hey?!) - this is just flipping wrong!
There must be something that can be done about this rubbish "policy" as its making workers into slaves! Where is the employee wellbeing? Where is the consideration for the private life of the worker?

The point I am making in this rant is that no new policy can be just suddenly introduced and enforced without the proper consultation, especially as the reason for this is not exactly business need (but making the job of rotas ect easier for the guy that is settling them).

Any other suggestions and views are welcome.

[R0b]

Re: Refused holiday request - can employer do that?

I agree what Mariefab is saying is that there is no automatic right for a worker to determine and decide when they can and cannot take holiday - employers can refuse to accept an employee's holiday request.

You could argue discrimination but there would need to be a good cause, for example the business is allowing other people to take holidays which are not full weeks.

[mariefab]

Re: Refused holiday request - can employer do that?

Employers don't even need a policy to cover this issue because they already have the Working Time Regulations 1998 s.15 2(b) and statute trumps contract.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1...lation/15/made

[GinaAnd]

Re: Refused holiday request - can employer do that?

Employers don't even need a policy to cover this issue because they already have the Working Time Regulations 1998 s.15 2(b) and statute trumps contract.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1...lation/15/made

Thanks, i am stanned. This is simply shit, there is no other word to expresss this. Easy to draft such legislation for business lobbied EU and very acceptable to those who have reasonable employers with comfortable jobs that even offer a flexibility of a half a day holiday.
Those in a weaker possition are always legaly exploited. World has not changed much since the medieval times...

[Ripped-Off]

Re: Refused holiday request - can employer do that?

Can you imagine if you wanted to go a summer holiday to a far off place with only one flight per week and the only flight was on a Wednesday?

I'm no employment expert but I do know that my own contract of employment dictates how and when I can take holidays. Also, whilst I agree that an employer can dictate when you can take your holidays I've never heard of such an inflexible employer. The draconian measures that you describe are unreasonable and I would advise checking the contract of employment or looking for new employment. Does s15(5) of the WTR 1998 allow the contract to trump statute?

I would also look into whether other colleagues have similar restrictions.

[R0b]

Re: Refused holiday request - can employer do that?

You may not like it but unfortunately that is the law. Your husband needs to review his employment contract as suggested and also any policies and procedures on taking holidays.

Again if some employees are are allowed to take shorter holidays and others must take a full week this could be seen as giving preference and is not treating every employee fairly so they are your starting point

[GinaAnd]

Re: Refused holiday request - can employer do that?

Thanks Ripped-off - you are spot on. Agreed, we will fight this.

R0b it may be a law, but clearly a crap one. I mentioned above - there is no restriction or limitation on holiday in the wording of the contract. There is no written holiday procedure that was communicated either.

[mariefab]

Re: Refused holiday request - can employer do that?

Does s15(5) of the WTR 1998 allow the contract to trump statute?

Yes, if such a variation or exclusion was written into the contract or other agreement the contractual clause would be supported by statute. It would be unusual, but it's definitely worth checking.
Well spotted Ripped-Off.:tinysmile_grin_t:

It's no comfort to you GinaAnd, but the UK was dragged kicking and screaming into enacting the WTR. Forcing defenceless employers to provide minimum paid holiday entitlement, rest periods etc. wasn't popular with the business lobby.

[charitynjw]

Re: Refused holiday request - can employer do that?

Thanks, i am stanned. This is simply shit, there is no other word to expresss this. Easy to draft such legislation for business lobbied EU and very acceptable to those who have reasonable employers with comfortable jobs that even offer a flexibility of a half a day holiday.
Those in a weaker possition are always legaly exploited. World has not changed much since the medieval times...

Can you imagine if you wanted to go a summer holiday to a far off place with only one flight per week and the only flight was on a Wednesday?

I'm no employment expert but I do know that my own contract of employment dictates how and when I can take holidays. Also, whilst I agree that an employer can dictate when you can take your holidays I've never heard of such an inflexible employer. The draconian measures that you describe are unreasonable and I would advise checking the contract of employment or looking for new employment. Does s15(5) of the WTR 1998 allow the contract to trump statute?

I would also look into whether other colleagues have similar restrictions.

Thanks Ripped-off - you are spot on. Agreed, we will fight this.

R0b it may be a law, but clearly a crap one. I mentioned above - there is no restriction or limitation on holiday in the wording of the contract. There is no written holiday procedure that was communicated either.

It is what it is - Laws (legislation & case law) isn't always popular with everybody; it often depends which side of the fence you are on.

[Ripped-Off]

Re: Refused holiday request - can employer do that?

When you say...

there is no restriction or limitation on holiday in the wording of the contract

that suggests that the contract is silent on holidays?

Having looked at the meaning of 'relevant agreement' in the regulations, it is defined as.....in relation to a worker, means a workforce agreement which applies to him, any provision of a collective agreement which forms part of a contract between him and his employer, or any other agreement in writing which is legally enforceable as between the worker and his employer;

...so I suspect that the contract will trump the statute. However, if the contract is silent on holidays, as yours appears to be, then the WTR trump the contract of employment. Whether there is an argument that there has been a course of dealings which establishes a convention, thereby implying an agreement to take the days requested, is beyond my experience.

[mariefab]

Re: Refused holiday request - can employer do that?

In the absence of any help in the written contract, you could try arguing custom and practice. There more to a contract of employment than words on a page. What always happens during the course of the employment can become part of the contract too.
Asking as many questions as possible including things like....
It's always been allowed before, why not now?
Why wasn't I informed when the decision to change the existing policy was made?
Does this new policy apply to everyone, including management?
Why wasn't I informed when the decision was made?
....might encourage them to let him have it either to avoid having to answer the questions or just to get him to go away.

His employer may not even be aware of WTR 15 2(b). You'd be surprised how many employers are woefully ill-informed when it comes to employment law. It may not work but it's worth a try.

[GinaAnd]

Re: Refused holiday request - can employer do that?

Ok so here is the wording from the contract (relevant parts only):
"In order for the company to accept your request for holiday you must give your manager adequate advance warning of a minimum 2 weeks ahaed of the first day of the requested holiday. Acceptance of your request is at company's discretion and the company will do all it can to facilitate your request. "

[charitynjw]

Re: Refused holiday request - can employer do that?

Ok so here is the wording from the contract (relevant parts only):
"In order for the company to accept your request for holiday you must give your manager adequate advance warning of a minimum 2 weeks ahaed of the first day of the requested holiday. Acceptance of your request is at company's discretion and the company will do all it can to facilitate your request. "

Game, set & match.