Unsure if I have a case for a grievane or constructive dismissal. Please help!

[bradder]

Re: Unsure if I have a case for a grievane or constructive dismissal. Please help!

Sorry to bombard you with more info mariefab, but another thing to take in to account...

As per my opening post, after the previous TUPE in Nov/Dec 2011 I was shifted in to a different team without consultation and my job was severey deskilled and watered down. If I would have remained in the team I was originally placed in, I would be unaffected by this latest transfer

I know it was a while ago, but it's just something else to consider because it's the whole reason I'm in this position

UPDATE:
I've finally just been given something in writing (on email) regarding the selection criteria...
1. Apparently, I'm based in a strategic/critical location (even though, as mentioned previously, I literally do no work locally)
2. They have categorised everyone in my team as either 1st, 2nd, or 3rd line engineers. I have never seen this before, and apparently 1st and 2nd line engineers are to be outsourced. They have classed me as a 2nd line engineer, presumably based on the fact that I generally perform BAU work (which is assigned to me)

Any advice appreciated, trying to stay strong but this is really getting me down. I have an individual meeting later this week with my present employer and the company I am being transferred to, so it would be great if I could identify the best approach to take ASAP

Thank you

[mariefab]

Re: Unsure if I have a case for a grievane or constructive dismissal. Please help!

I'm afraid that it's far too late to do anything the things that happened after the last transfer.

1. They've probably said the same to the other guy they want to transfer. It's intended to bolster the selection criteria for redundancy, along with location B closing. (Perhaps they described location B as pointless/mundane.)
2. Don't let them know that you've made any presumptions about what a 1st, 2nd or 3rd line engineer is. A flimsy post-decision statement like that contains no explanation at all concerning the reason why you 2 were selected for transfer. There's no criteria, it's just new information about how the employer has decided that they now see the team.

If you see an opportunity, perhaps toward the end of the meeting, lightly ask your employer something like, "I've never heard anything about it this 1st 2nd, 3rd engineers until your email. When did that happen?"
See if you get an explanation.
Otherwise listen and take notes if you can particularly of changes.

This meeting is a required part of TUPE. They must inform, consult and tell you about any 'measures' i.e. anticipated changes.
Sometimes the new company asks about things like proof of eligibility to work in the UK to cover themselves.
You are not required to commit/agree to any changes. The point of TUPE is that effectively only the employers name changes (apart from pensons).
If TUPE applies you'd automatically transfer on the transfer date without having to do anything yourself. If they ask you to state or sign your agreement to anything different say you'd prefer to think it over; unless it's a simple confirmation that you heard what they had to say.

Whatever you do don't refuse to transfer because that's a resignation that lets everyone off the hook.
Whether TUPE applies can be challenged after a transfer.

[bradder]

Re: Unsure if I have a case for a grievane or constructive dismissal. Please help!

I'm afraid that it's far too late to do anything the things that happened after the last transfer.

I understand. It's just frustrating because I've basically kept my head down for the past 4 years in the hopes of being offered redundancy! And when the day finally arrives they've put me in the TUPE group when 90% of staff effected are walking away with the enhanced redundancy package. Typical

1. They've probably said the same to the other guy they want to transfer. It's intended to bolster the selection criteria for redundancy, along with location B closing. (Perhaps they described location B as pointless/mundane.)

They've not actually said anything to him. Although I did let him know what I had been told

2. Don't let them know that you've made any presumptions about what a 1st, 2nd or 3rd line engineer is. A flimsy post-decision statement like that contains no explanation at all concerning the reason why you 2 were selected for transfer. There's no criteria, it's just new information about how the employer has decided that they now see the team.

If you see an opportunity, perhaps toward the end of the meeting, lightly ask your employer something like, "I've never heard anything about it this 1st 2nd, 3rd engineers until your email. When did that happen?"
See if you get an explanation.
Otherwise listen and take notes if you can particularly of changes.

Unfortunately, I might have jumped the gun here. I replied earlier today asking them for clarification on the new grading system as I'd never seen it before. I also asked them to confirm why I was placed in to the 2nd line group

This meeting is a required part of TUPE. They must inform, consult and tell you about any 'measures' i.e. anticipated changes.
Sometimes the new company asks about things like proof of eligibility to work in the UK to cover themselves.
You are not required to commit/agree to any changes. The point of TUPE is that effectively only the employers name changes (apart from pensons).
If TUPE applies you'd automatically transfer on the transfer date without having to do anything yourself. If they ask you to state or sign your agreement to anything different say you'd prefer to think it over; unless it's a simple confirmation that you heard what they had to say.

We had a meeting already last week. Well, I say a meeting, it was more of a sales pitch from the new company telling the whole group how great things will be. They have already provided a draft version of the 'measures' and to be honest, there are quite a lot of negatives, I think we counted approx 23 negatives out of 50 measures! When I say negatives, I mean benefits which are not equal or better than what we currently have (although the core legally binding things such as honoring length of service appear to be ok). In general, we're losing out quite a lot. Now we've had the group presentation, we're moving on to individual one-to-one meetings this week

Whatever you do don't refuse to transfer because that's a resignation that lets everyone off the hook.
Whether TUPE applies can be challenged after a transfer.

I certainly won't do this. I already feel really hard done to. I know it's not all relevant, but I've been with the company for well over 15 years. Since the restructure in 2011, I've basically been systematically demoted time and time again. I'm not about to give up without a fight

Thank you

[mariefab]

Re: Unsure if I have a case for a grievane or constructive dismissal. Please help!

Unfortunately, I might have jumped the gun here. I replied earlier today asking them for clarification on the new grading system as I'd never seen it before. I also asked them to confirm why I was placed in to the 2nd line group

No need for Mr Frownyface, what you did there was better than my suggestion.:tinysmile_grin_t:

As you've already had the pitch, the agenda at the one-to-one could be to get your agreement to the changes.
Can you post a few of the worst negatives here?

Generally they can lawfully make changes in these circumstances:
1. You agree to the changes.
2. Your current contract of employment already permits the employer to make the changes unilaterally.
3. For an ETO reason.
4. The changes are so piddling and inconsequential that no-one in their right mind would object to them.

[bradder]

Re: Unsure if I have a case for a grievane or constructive dismissal. Please help!

Can you post a few of the worst negatives here?

Worse expenses policy, no share scheme, no season ticket loan, worse eye care, no overtime, etc etc. the main one for me is the pension which is way worse (I'll be going from a final salary scheme to a 6% joint contribution) but I know this is not covered by TUPE - this means I also lose ill health retirement provision because I will be a deferred member of the final salary scheme. To be honest, all of these say non-contractual so I don't think there's much we can do

There are also a few ambiguous statements such as:
"Employees will continue to work at the same premises while assigned to the same account" ...what happens if we get assigned to a different account?
"This captures the terms and conditions of employment that will apply post transfer, whilst an individual remains in the same role" ...what happens if I change roles?

But to be honest mariefab, I don't really want to go. Obviously I can't decline the role, but I don't trust either company. I'm fairly sure that post transfer they will simply milk me for my knowledge and then introduce an ETO reason to change my terms. Hence I could potentially lose my enhanced redundancy package. I would rather be laid off now without going through the TUPE process along with the vast majority of staff who are impacted

As you know, I recently asked for further clarification around the selection process, as not everyone in my team is transferring. I asked these questions:-
1. Could you confirm which tasks I perform which the new company doesn't have the knowledge?
2. Could you explain the difference between 1st, 2nd and 3rd line engineers?
3. I've never heard of these 3 categories before. Can you show me where they are documented as they haven't previously been communicated to my team?
4. Can you explain the reason behind me being defined as 2nd line, rather than 1st or 3rd?

They came back with this response...
You are viewed second line support as your daily work is repeatable
You are not a escalation point for major incidents and do not currently participate within the on-call rota
Your local site is a critical location for the business and may require local hands on support on occasion

They've clearly avoided my questions. I'm in a flat team, so nobody is an escalation point, and I don't see how being on the on-call rota makes a difference? If I was to join the on call rota, would that mean I am safe from TUPE? It doesn't seem like a justifiable reason to me. There's no explanation of the difference between level 1, 2, and 3 engineers, and as stated previously, I don't actually do any work onsite at the moment, so it seems unfair to use that against me. There are other technical people onsite who could perform local hands on support under instruction if required

I think they're trying retrospectively apply a set of rules to our team which didn't previously exist, in order to justify why they are transferring me but not others