Is it fair or reasonable?

[Thename]

If an employee is having a disciplinary regarding an alleged health and safety issue, would it be fair and reasonable for that disciplinary to be heard by a manager who was also under investigation for an alleged health and safety issue?

[teaboy2]

Re: Is it fair or reasonable?

Is it the same alleged incident or seperate one?

[Openlaw15]

Re: Is it fair or reasonable?

Is it the same alleged incident or seperate one?

Even it were a separate incident it would be hard for an employee who has breached health and safety to trust the judgement of a manager who their self is also prejudiced by not following health and safety. It requires a manager who is not affected and who adheres to health and safety otherwise it's a massive conflict of interests - a quasi judgement as it were.

[teaboy2]

Re: Is it fair or reasonable?

Depends hugely on the circumstances of each instance of breach of health and safety and whether they were connected to one and another. As well as on a lot of other things, such as number of staff (i.e. is there any one else that can do the disciplinary etc).

If the Managers breach is a minor one, and the OP's a major one, i can't see it being a conflict of interest to be honest. And remember, all the employer needs is reasonable belief, nothing more. So long as the manager follows procedure correctly and the evidence from the investigation (carried out by someone other than the manager) established (on reasonable belief) that there was a breach etc. Then the employer has everything they need to take disciplinary action, be it dismissal or a formal warning, and still be deemed to have acted fairly and reasonably.

[Thename]

Re: Is it fair or reasonable?

The employees breach wasn't a direct breach, it was something he did which, had a certain chain of events occurred afterwards, it may have resulted in a minor health and safety issue. The manager is exaggerating the issue to make an example of the employee.

The managers breach was a direct breach, which also breached fire safety regulations, and should get him sacked for gross misconduct.

I don't think the manager should be hearing any disciplinaries,let alone one about health and safety, until his own case is over. There are other managers to hear the employees case but this manager insisted on doing it.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Is it fair or reasonable?

The employees breach wasn't a direct breach, it was something he did which, had a certain chain of events occurred afterwards, it may have resulted in a minor health and safety issue. The manager is exaggerating the issue to make an example of the employee.

The managers breach was a direct breach, which also breached fire safety regulations, and should get him sacked for gross misconduct.

I don't think the manager should be hearing any disciplinaries,let alone one about health and safety, until his own case is over. There are other managers to hear the employees case but this manager insisted on doing it.

It is pointless to consider hypotheticals without the facts in this situation. Please can you provide the facts of the employee versus the facts of manager's health safety breach. Thanks.

[Noah]

Re: Is it fair or reasonable?

I am wondering how the employee knows that the manager is being investigated for a health and safety breach. Surely that is a breach of confidentiality on the employers part.
If the manager is being investigated , and it could lead to dismissal surely they should have been suspended and therefore would be unable to conduct a disciplinary.

More questions
Is the manager conducting the disciplinary or the investigation , frequently while one person conducts the investigation they then lease with HR and senior management on the outcome

[Openlaw15]

Re: Is it fair or reasonable?

I am wondering how the employee knows that the manager is being investigated for a health and safety breach. Surely that is a breach of confidentiality on the employers part.
If the manager is being investigated , and it could lead to dismissal surely they should have been suspended and therefore would be unable to conduct a disciplinary.


More questions
Is the manager conducting the disciplinary or the investigation , frequently while one person conducts the investigation they then lease with HR and senior management on the outcome

Interesting, in addition to what you say, there were several managers to choose from so why use one who has a prejudice against them.

[Noah]

Re: Is it fair or reasonable?

There seems to be a lot of gossip or inside knowledge here. Someone , somewhere is breaching confidentiality

Again the statement that others could have done it but this manager insisted, usually there is policy for disciplinary that dictates who does what . In previous roles I have had it depended on the severity of the allegations and could range from someone of the immediate line manager rank to someone of equivalent rank of the line managers line manager but from a different area - all dismissals had to be from someone from a different area/division so that impartiality could be observed . Hope that makes sense
i.e
My boss could investigate me unless it was gross misconduct where my bosses boss could investigate however the disciplinary decision would have come from someone of equivalent seniority in a different region/devision.

[Thename]

Re: Is it fair or reasonable?

This is getting more complicated then it needs to be. It doesn't matter how information came to pass or the details of breaches imo. For the purpose of the question the facts are:

employee - allegations of minor breach of health and safety

manager - being investigated for major breach of health and safety.

the breaches are not related.


given those facts, is it reasonable and fair for the manager to hear the employees disciplinary while he himself is under investigation for a more serious offence?

[Openlaw15]

Re: Is it fair or reasonable?

This is getting more complicated then it needs to be. It doesn't matter how information came to pass or the details of breaches imo. For the purpose of the question the facts are:

employee - allegations of minor breach of health and safety

manager - being investigated for major breach of health and safety.

the breaches are not related.


given those facts, is it reasonable and fair for the manager to hear the employees disciplinary while he himself is under investigation for a more serious offence?

No, as you shouldn't serve food with dirty hands, so to speak

[Noah]

Re: Is it fair or reasonable?

I think that the answer should be no because I believe the manager should have been suspended if the breach was serious enough to potentially lead to dismissal. If the breach was not that serious then yes it is part of their job description.

Remember as well that consistency can be used in an appeal

[teaboy2]

Re: Is it fair or reasonable?

But how do you know for certain, without any doubt, that the manager is being investigated? - how do you know whether he's subject to an ongoing investigation or weather the company simply dropped the matter against the manager?

The problem you may have if you don't know for definite if the manager is being investigated (fact hes not been suspended suggests he isn't), then you can't exactly go complaining about him carrying out the disciplinary based on a allegation, when you don't know for definite if that allegation is factual or not. I'm not saying it isn't; just that if all you have is hearsay and no hard evidential proof he's being investigated. Then by making such a claim against him, so as not to have him carry out the disciplinary, could well open up another can of worms. As then they'd be wanting to know who broke the confidentiality terms or whos been spreading falsehoods that may well amount to slander or even harassment!

So what evidence do you have that the managers is being investigate? Have you seen confidential letters from the company addressed to the manager state as much, which only the manager and the person disciplining him will have seen (including say head of HR).

I agree if it is true, then as there is more managers that could carry out the disciplinary against the employee, then another manager should be doing it. But unless you have anything to support your allegation that the manager is being investigated for similar act or misconduct. Then you'd be playing a danagerous game that would probably cause more harm to the employees chances of saving his job then actually helping him!

Concentrate on defending the employee against the allegation he/she is facing instead of focusing on something the manager may or may not be being investigated for. You can always bring this up at any appeal stage to challenge the fairness of the decision and disciplinay procedure. Bring it up now, even if true, would mean you won't be able to use it to challenge the outcome at appeal!

So your best bet is keep your lips sealed, find out for certain if its true about the manager (get documented evidence i.e statements from people on the sly). Then if the outcome goes against the Employee, you can chuck what you know about the manager at the employer at the appeal stage to challenge the fairness and reasonableness of the outcome of the disciplinary, or even the process as a whole - which will likely result in the employee being reinstated or having a solid case for unfair dismissal if hes had two years service!