accused of putting health and safety at risk

[mariefab]

Re: accused of putting health and safety at risk

I agree.
But if they've made that determination they should find a method of communicating it to their employees.

[mariefab]

Re: accused of putting health and safety at risk

Any of the risk assessments that I've completed have involved identifying all the potential risks then demonstrating how they have been eliminated or reduced to the lowest possible level. The idea being to try to prevent accidents and consequent injuries from occurring as far as possible.

First aiders, advanced or not, are only needed after an injury happens. So, they can't be the cause of the risk, as this employer contends. A first aider with a plaster can't prevent a cut finger.

[Natalie1]

Re: accused of putting health and safety at risk

Thank you for all your replies. Ive decided im going to look for another job. In the meantime I will go to the disciplinary hearing and ask them to prove their accusation.

[stevemLS]

Re: accused of putting health and safety at risk

Thank you for all your replies. Ive decided im going to look for another job. In the meantime I will go to the disciplinary hearing and ask them to prove their accusation.

Good luck, let us know how you get on.

- - - Updated - - -

Any of the risk assessments that I've completed have involved identifying all the potential risks then demonstrating how they have been eliminated or reduced to the lowest possible level. The idea being to try to prevent accidents and consequent injuries from occurring as far as possible.

First aiders, advanced or not, are only needed after an injury happens. So, they can't be the cause of the risk, as this employer contends. A first aider with a plaster can't prevent a cut finger.

Agreed, yes, but the presence of first aiders can mitigate the consequences of an injury however it arises.

[judgemental24]

Re: accused of putting health and safety at risk

Sorry people, computer went bang last monday and just back on line.

There is no statutory legislation on a Duy of care from one person to another as it is a common law requirement. That is how you hear of these stories of policemen failing to go into a river to rescue someone drowning. It is not health and safety gone mad but the rule of law.

A common law duty of care has now been expanded and given legal affect through the crime of negligence. (Donohugh v. Stevenson) or better known as the "Paisley Snail"

That is one of the very few statutory requirements made outside of Parliament (Legislature) by the judiciary

This issue will come under any licence the hotel has with the local authority and the Occupiers liability Act/Insurance conditions.

If a member of staff or guest needed first aid then an employee has to be trained to a mnimum standard. Most major public locations and major employers now have those defibrillators on site as an example

For the employer to state a lack of a senior first aider to be a concern will depend on the employer own internal health and safety policy including how many people including guests were in the premises that night. Unless you have been trained in risk assessments and safe systems of work you cannot be held accountable on minimum requirements. . (But that is a management responsibility)

The obvious question has to be is is written into any risk assessment that a senior first aider have to be on duty during all shift selection?

The other question has to be how many staff hold this position of advance first aider and who does the duty Rosta?

Is there a list on the wall in the management office of Qualified and senior staff first aiders you could have referred to?

A breach of health and safety is gross misconduct and a dismisssal offence made even worse by your limited service. If it can be proven that this is an employer requirement then you as a manager will be held accountable.

Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999 ( (3) risk assessments

It seems to me management have an operational requirement that control limits are put into place to limit any possible harm to either guests or employees. You as a manager knowing that management policy failed to follow that as to your employer welfare policy for what ever reason, staff shortage etc.

Sorry that is not what you wish to hear but those are the facts as i see it

[Natalie1]

Re: accused of putting health and safety at risk

Thank you for the reply.

"If a member of staff or guest needed first aid then an employee has to be trained to a mnimum standard."
I knew every member of staff was trained to the legally required minimum standard as we all did that training at the same time. The company even told us all if we didn't complete this training by a set date then we couldn't come to work after that date.

"For the employer to state a lack of a senior first aider to be a concern will depend on the employer own internal health and safety policy including how many people including guests were in the premises that night. Unless you have been trained in risk assessments and safe systems of work you cannot be held accountable on minimum requirements. . (But that is a management responsibility)"
We’ve all done the basic health & safety training which included how to spot potential hazards. That’s the only thing I know that could be risk assessment and safe system of work.

"The obvious question has to be is is written into any risk assessment that a senior first aider have to be on duty during all shift selection?"
I have no idea. It has never been told to me and is not in any paperwork supplied to me.

"The other question has to be how many staff hold this position of advance first aider and who does the duty Rosta?"
Again I have no idea. As far as I am aware, no one has been told who else did this advanced training. We only found out a few names when this occurred. No one was appointed to be a first aider but the company is now stating that those who did the advanced training are first aiders. There is no first aider rota, just a normal shift rota done by the boss.

"Is there a list on the wall in the management office of Qualified and senior staff first aiders you could have referred to?"
There is no list anywhere on the premises

"A breach of health and safety is gross misconduct and a dismisssal offence made even worse by your limited service. If it can be proven that this is an employer requirement then you as a manager will be held accountable."
There was no breach of any legal health & safety requirements. Ive never been told of any additional company health & safety requirements so cant say if they were breached or not.

I will also add that not every shift had an advanced first aider. None of the staff who worked on my shift had done the advanced first aid training and on my days off they didn't put any other staff with them.

[judgemental24]

Re: accused of putting health and safety at risk

Then if these procedures have not been made avaliable to you then that is your argument

When is the disciplinary meeting??

I would be asking for prior to the meeting the companies health and safety policy in the employee hand book to start with and ask questions as to my other suggestions

If you have not been made aware of the responsibility then that duty of care as a regulatory issue will then fall on your immediate supervisor.

He/she should be facing the disciplinay, not you

[Natalie1]

Re: accused of putting health and safety at risk

My disciplinary is Wednesday.

I have the employee handbook. Under health & safety it says you must not take action that could threaten the health and safety of yourself or others. It mentions about protective clothing. It says you should report all accidents and injuries. Then it states "You should make yourself familiar with our Health and Safety policy and your own health and safety duties and responsibilities as shown separately"

On the separate sheets which I was given with the hand book it states under health & safety "Please refer to your employee handbook for Health and Safety policy".

I will still ask for the health and safety policy to see if they give me anything different.

[judgemental24]

Re: accused of putting health and safety at risk

If the business policy of having a member of staff who is an advanced first aider on every shift is not in that Health and safety policy, how can you be disciplined for not following it??

If i was your rep at this meeting it will be no contests if the above applies

[Natalie1]

Re: accused of putting health and safety at risk

I don't have a rep im going in there on my own. The handbook does state that gross misconduct is "breach of health and safety rules that endangers the lives of, or may cause serious injury to, employees or any other person". Would I be right in thinking they would have to prove my actions endangered lives or could have caused serious injury if they want to treat this as gross misconduct? There was no emergency as a result of my actions so I think I got the first bit covered. I don't think my actions could have caused serious injury; as said before the injury would already have to be present for first aid to be needed, hopefully that is the second bit covered. Worst thing they could call my actions is serious misconduct so hopefully I wont lose my job which will give me more time to find another.

[judgemental24]

Re: accused of putting health and safety at risk

You need to stop trying to over complicate this matter,

The Facts Are:

You are facing a disciplinary because you failed to have an advanced first aider on duty and as a manager that is your responsibilty as to the business health and safety policy

You need to be asking where that clause is stated in the health and safety policy.

That policy document will be either a risk assessment or a safe systems of work

If no such document exists or not inclusive in that policy document you cannot be held accountable.

You need to be asking for a copy of that policy document prior to going into that disciplinary meeting

[Natalie1]

Re: accused of putting health and safety at risk

They confirmed I had not broken any health & safety policy or company policy and they told me there is no policywhich states there has to be an advanced first aider on premises but, they feel one is needed because what wouldhappen if an emergency occurred that needed advanced first aid and no staff inthe hotel was trained. They admitted I didn’t directly put guest health &safety at risk but that the risk came from staff not being able to treat guestsif an advanced emergency occurred. When I asked them to be more specific on howthat put guests at risk they just said a guest could die if staff don’t knowhow to treat them. They couldn’t grasp that if a guest was in a position where lackof treatment meant they could die then they are already at risk and it was notdue to staff not knowing advanced first aid. After a half hour disciplinary meeting Iwas given a final written warning for putting guest health & safety atrisk. I know its going to be a complete waste of time but I will be appealingthat decision.

[ostell]

Re: accused of putting health and safety at risk

What a load of !"!!!!

[Trev1234]

Re: accused of putting health and safety at risk

So they get away with ruining your position on the basis if could-have. Frustrates me that they can and do get away with this leaving you the option to look elsewhere or stay with the FWW hanging above you. My own experience suggests you are doing the right thing in appealing and looking elsewhere! Though they win twice because you now have a FWW on future references if asked!

Good luck

[Natalie1]

Re: accused of putting health and safety at risk

I lost the appeal because they said I should have known it was wrong. They had no evidence to show what I did was wrong. The investigation didn't establish I did anything wrong and didn't establish the facts of the case. My employer even said they didn't know if I had broken any rules.

Can someone answer a few questions please:

1. If they don't know if rules had been broken how could I have known it would be wrong?
2. If the investigation did not establish the facts of the case, should it have gone to a disciplinary?