Employer has dismissed me for suspected theft

[Sam3008]

Hi, I'm hoping someone can offer a bit of advice;

I've been dismissed for gross misconduct effectively immediately.

I'll try keep the story as short as possible but Monday 10th August I got a phone call after my shift to say someone suspected me leaving site with product. They had checked CCTV but couldn't see anything as the cameras had stopped working. Tuesday I went into work and was immediately called into a meeting in the meeting they explained what I was suspected of, took my statement and suspended me. Thursday I was told to arrive at a meeting conducted by HR and two officials, HR did not attend however two other managers and the company owner were in. They told me how they had traced me turning the cameras off from my PC which is a complete lie. They told me they had witness statements also against me. I believe they have fabricated the whole event however I received a letter this morning via email (dated 17th August) it is the 20th? Stating how I am clearly guilty despite stating my innocence and that the company will seek to reclaim losses and also speak to the police and they also believe this matter dates back up to 3 years. Again this is complete fabrication. I am unsure what to do next. Can anyone advice me of what the process is and/or what I could do?

Thank you kindly for your help.

[stevemLS]

Re: Employer has dismissed me for suspected theft

Hi and welcome to the forumWere you provided with a copy of the disciplinary policy and the evidence on which they relied prior to the hearing?Is it technically possible to turn off the CCTV from your PC?Realistically now the only step available to you is to appeal. The time limit for doing so is often very brief, 5 or 7 days is common?What is the nature and value of what it is you are said to have stolen?The absence of HR and the difference in dates between the letter and the email are immaterial.

[Sam3008]

Re: Employer has dismissed me for suspected theft

They showed me a CCTV Clip where I went out to my van before going home that night, it showed nothing but me starting my van up, apparently it is possible but I have no knowledge of this, they say they can prove it from my IP address but I have seen no evidence of this. The product they are accusing me of is meat as it is a meat production factory however they have not given me a figure at all, my letter states 'into the thousands' I cannot understand how they have come up with these theories. Thank you for your reply!

[stevemLS]

Re: Employer has dismissed me for suspected theft

Did they provide the witness statements you mention in your first post? And the disciplinary policy?(Not sure why I asked about the value, it is largely immaterial, sorry!)

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Employer has dismissed me for suspected theft

Hi, I'm hoping someone can offer a bit of advice;

I've been dismissed for gross misconduct effectively immediately.

First of all, how long did you work for your employer?

I'll try keep the story as short as possible but Monday 10th August I got a phone call after my shift to say someone suspected me leaving site with product. They had checked CCTV but couldn't see anything as the cameras had stopped working. Tuesday I went into work and was immediately called into a meeting in the meeting they explained what I was suspected of, took my statement and suspended me. Thursday I was told to arrive at a meeting conducted by HR and two officials, HR did not attend however two other managers and the company owner were in. They told me how they had traced me turning the cameras off from my PC which is a complete lie.

Would you have been able to do that in the first place? You say they told you how they traced you, if so, how did they? Was it common for CCTV cameras to stop working?

They told me they had witness statements also against me. I believe they have fabricated the whole event however I received a letter this morning via email (dated 17th August) it is the 20th? Stating how I am clearly guilty despite stating my innocence and that the company will seek to reclaim losses and also speak to the police and they also believe this matter dates back up to 3 years. Again this is complete fabrication. I am unsure what to do next. Can anyone advice me of what the process is and/or what I could do?

Thank you kindly for your help.

There seem to be three separate issues here:

1. The dismissal, under employment law
2. The alleged losses, under civil law
3. The police, which would fall under criminal law.

From what you say above, I don't see any chance of either 2) or 3) going anywhere, it would take more than a statement that you turned off the cameras one day to convince a court that you have been stealing for three years, there would need to be evidence from their books, inventory, etc. For the purpose of criminal action, the standard of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt, so they'd need to have evidence showing you stealing the goods rather than just no evidence due to malfunctioning cameras. From experience, companies often try to cover themselves against legal action against them, by making all sorts of weird and wonderful threats, intended to dissuade people from making, or continuing with, an employment tribunal claim. :mad2: :mad2: :mad2:

[Sam3008]

Re: Employer has dismissed me for suspected theft

Thank you for your responses I'll answer all questions in the order asked;

No I have not had a copy of disciplinary policy & no I have not have the witness statements. I have just sent a letter requesting the statements & proof of cctv being turned off by myself.

I have worked for my employer for the last 8 years.

They are claiming they have traced my IP address as the IP address turning the cameras off, I have asked for proof of this as it is impossible. And I am uncertain whether the cameras were always working fully.

Thank you for your advice it has given me a lot of relief however the threatening nature of the statements being made and the possibility of falsified witness statements has worried me. I appreciate your responses.

[stevemLS]

Re: Employer has dismissed me for suspected theft

Failing to provide you with the evidence in advance is a breach of the requirement of fairness. You should have been given all evidence upon which they intended to rely in order to prepare your case.

Failure to provide you with a copy of the policy is a less serious breach as you may have been able to access it elsewhere.

About IP addresses I know nothing.

I would suggest you write again, something like:

"Dear xxx

I refer to your letter dated 17th August which was sent by email on 20th August.

I have already written to you requesting the witness statements which you referred to during our meeting.

The failure to provide those statements in advance, together with the disciplinary policy, are a serious departure from the ACAS statutory Code of Practice on managing discipline and renders the process unfair and did not give me sufficient opportunity to prepare my case.

With that in mind, I reserve my right to appeal until such time as I have received this documentation and had reasonable time to consider it.

Yours"

Did they give you written notice of the second meeting and did they advise you of your statutory right to be accompanied, if not, add that in.

[Sam3008]

Re: Employer has dismissed me for suspected theft

Thank you very much for your response. Yes they did inform me by writing of my second meeting & yes they did offer the right of having someone present. I really appreciate your information. Thank you so much, I will send that letter asap.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Employer has dismissed me for suspected theft

Thank you for your responses I'll answer all questions in the order asked;

No I have not had a copy of disciplinary policy & no I have not have the witness statements. I have just sent a letter requesting the statements & proof of cctv being turned off by myself.

I have worked for my employer for the last 8 years.

That's good news, as if you hadn't been with them for two years there is little you could have done even if their dismissal was unfair. :thumb:

They are claiming they have traced my IP address as the IP address turning the cameras off, I have asked for proof of this as it is impossible. And I am uncertain whether the cameras were always working fully.

When you say it's impossible, are you saying it was impossible for them to trace the IP address or for you to have turned the cameras off? Were you in a position to turn them off at all?

Thank you very much for your response. Yes they did inform me by writing of my second meeting & yes they did offer the right of having someone present. I really appreciate your information. Thank you so much, I will send that letter asap.

I would also consider sending a SAR to them, for all data they hold about you. It will cost you Ł10 and they have up to 40 days to respond but it should provide you with all historical data.

[Sam3008]

Re: Employer has dismissed me for suspected theft

Sorry when I say it is 'impossible' I mean simply by the fact that I did no such thing, I am unsure as to whether the camera can genuinely be switched off from my pc. I find it hard to believe it could however I do not know for certain.

Thank you I will look into doing just that, is it something I can do myself or do I go via a company? Sorry for so many questions.

Thank you kindly

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Employer has dismissed me for suspected theft

Sorry when I say it is 'impossible' I mean simply by the fact that I did no such thing, I am unsure as to whether the camera can genuinely be switched off from my pc. I find it hard to believe it could however I do not know for certain.

Most employees wouldn't be able to switch off CCTV cameras themselves, that ability is probably reserved for some of those who work at the security desk and maybe some IT guys but no-one else.

Thank you I will look into doing just that, is it something I can do myself or do I go via a company? Sorry for so many questions.

Thank you kindly

If you are referring to the SAR, it's just a letter you send yourself, with a cheque or PO for Ł10 to cover the fee. It should go recorded delivery. :typing:

The SAR letters you'll find on this site are mostly tailored to be sent to banks asking for financial information. I'd suggest looking at the ICO site to get an idea of what you can request, note that you can even request CCTV footage: https://ico.org.uk/for-the-public/

[Sam3008]

Re: Employer has dismissed me for suspected theft

Yes I completely agree.

That's great help thank you very much!

[teaboy2]

Re: Employer has dismissed me for suspected theft

Regarding tracing your IP address for turning the cctv off.

You need to ask them for computer logs, proof of your PC's IP address, CCTV camera software logs showing that the CCTV system was accessed by your PC and the time the CCTV was switched off, along with proof of user logins and time of user login for the PC you use at work. Make sure all Computer/CCTV logs contain dates and times as well as user login information!

Remind them that as they stated they had such proof, then they are entitled to provide you copies of said evidence related to said allegation.

I find it very unlikely that you would have been able to access the CCTV from your workstation/pc as they are very likely on two separate networks. Also each PC has its own unique IP address so they would have to proof you were logged in to that PC with the IP address that matches the IP address of the machine that accessed the CCTV and switched it off.

Yet what i don't get is they say the CCTV captured you going to your Van, then state the CCTV was turned off. Did the CCTV show you returning from your VAN. Did you see the CCTV (in the recording) turn off i.e. screen go blank!

[Sam3008]

Re: Employer has dismissed me for suspected theft

Thank you I will do exactly that. i completely agree with regards to the camera, I'm certain they will not have edvidence to back up this allegation. And sorry that was a bad explanation on my part, the reason they could see me go to my van is from a camera on a separate building that views some of the car park. Apologies for that.

Thank you very much!

[Trev1234]

Re: Employer has dismissed me for suspected theft

Unless they have ACTUAL CCTV evidence they have nothing. IP can be traced as TB suggests so you will need specific IP (static) on PC at the time you were logged in - this can be got from the Network Admin. I too doubt you can control the cameras via IP without access to the control which are usually on a different network altogether. TB is good isn't he!

T