Repayment of Relocation Expences

[TattyJJ]

Hi everyone

I'm hoping someone can give me a little bit of advice on employment law and where i stand with things....
I'll try to keep it as short as possible

Towards the end of last year the company i work for relocated me to a different site, and paid me £2k in expenses towards the cost of moving.
Just yesterday i gave notice notice as i've decided to change job.

Now suddenly this morning i was emailed a "Relocation Policy" basically stating i have to give the full amount back and it will be taken out of my final pay.
But this is the first time i have ever seen this policy. Before deciding to leave the company i was careful to go threw everything checking if there were any conditions stating i would have to give it back, but there is literally nothing.
On a letter i received outlining the relocation, change of place of employment, how much i'll get etc, there is a single line "see relocation policy attached"
But it was never actually attached, i bought this up verbally at the time, but still never received it.

I even emailed the member of HR who arranged everything a couple of weeks ago requesting a copy of the letter, my contract, and stated there were no terms and conditions relating to my relocation attached to the original letter and if they could be sent to me. Just so i could be completely sure....
I received a reply with the letter and contract etc, but this policy was not included nor were any terms and conditions of any sort relating to the move. But the reply did state that there were no terms and conditions and it was all per my original contract.

Basically i want to know if this policy is actually enforceable and if i will have to give the money back?
And if they can legally just deduct the money from my pay.

I cant actually prove this policy wasn't attached when i was originally presented with the relocation offer, but then again they cant prove it was either. And i even requested a copy of everything and still i never received it.
Surely this magically appearing policy cannot be enforced and deducting it from my pay would be unlawful deduction of wages?


Ta muchly
Jon

[TattyJJ]

Re: Repayment of Relocation Expences

No one able to offer any advice?? :help:

[Kati]

Re: Repayment of Relocation Expences

[MENTION=19071]teaboy2[/MENTION] [MENTION=67649]matt3942[/MENTION] any advice please??

[teaboy2]

Re: Repayment of Relocation Expences

Have you got a copy of the company hand book? Is such a policy in there - If not they can go sit and swivel!!

Though did you sign the letter that stated how much you would get that also referred to said policy? If not, then they can again go sit and swivel - But then, even if you did sign the letter, the onus of prove would be on them to proof the document was attached.

I would simply write back to them that you have never seen such document/policy, it was not attached to the offer letter, therefore the policy do not form terms and conditions of your contract. Not only that the contract fails to mention said policy, and (if its not in the company handbook) neither does the company handbook. In form them that HR response to your questions also clearly stated their were no terms and conditions applied to the offer of relocation expenses. Not only that the fact you had relocated, means they can not claim back said expenses, as they were to cover your cost of relocation, which they duly did! They were therefore a compensatory payment to cover the financial detriment you incurred whilst relocating for their benefit not for your own benefit!

[TattyJJ]

Re: Repayment of Relocation Expences

I have indeed had a good look threw the company handbook, and it is not in there and no mention of it either.
It isn't even anywhere to be found on the company internet portal, including the policies section.... lol
And there is no mention of anything in my contract.

I did bring all these point up, but the response was along the lines of, the policy is only given to staff who are being relocated and doesn't apply to all staff and therefore doesn't need to be mentioned or made available anywhere.
The letter itself was never signed by me.

My contract does have a line in saying they are allowed to take any money owed to them from time to time, which is how they are justifying just taking it from my pay.

I was the first person to be relocated and the whole thing was very rushed, another guy went a month after me, but i think got this letter at the same time, he has given permission for me to add him to the email chain saying that he was never given a copy of this policy either.
So far the whole tone of the responses from HR have pretty much been, this is not up for discussion, you are wrong, we are taking this money and we are perfectly entitled to do so, thank you and goodbye. With a healthy spattering of condescending!

My last email to them was yesterday morning, where i stated that i do not agree under any terms the money should be returned due to never being given this policy despite asking for it (which i can prove) and it not being anywhere for my to find off my own back, thus being unaware of any clause that would mean i have to pay it back if i leave.
That i explicitly do not give my consent to any money be deducted or withheld relating to these expenses, and if they do i will take them to tribunal.

As of yet i have had no response.

The really stupid thing is, if they really want to fight this and take it all the way it will cost them a hell of a lot more that the £2k in question!!



Cheers

[teaboy2]

Re: Repayment of Relocation Expences

I have indeed had a good look threw the company handbook, and it is not in there and no mention of it either.
It isn't even anywhere to be found on the company internet portal, including the policies section.... lol
And there is no mention of anything in my contract.

I did bring all these point up, but the response was along the lines of, the policy is only given to staff who are being relocated and doesn't apply to all staff and therefore doesn't need to be mentioned or made available anywhere.
The letter itself was never signed by me.

My contract does have a line in saying they are allowed to take any money owed to them from time to time, which is how they are justifying just taking it from my pay.

I was the first person to be relocated and the whole thing was very rushed, another guy went a month after me, but i think got this letter at the same time, he has given permission for me to add him to the email chain saying that he was never given a copy of this policy either.
So far the whole tone of the responses from HR have pretty much been, this is not up for discussion, you are wrong, we are taking this money and we are perfectly entitled to do so, thank you and goodbye. With a healthy spattering of condescending!

My last email to them was yesterday morning, where i stated that i do not agree under any terms the money should be returned due to never being given this policy despite asking for it (which i can prove) and it not being anywhere for my to find off my own back, thus being unaware of any clause that would mean i have to pay it back if i leave.
That i explicitly do not give my consent to any money be deducted or withheld relating to these expenses, and if they do i will take them to tribunal.

As of yet i have had no response.

The really stupid thing is, if they really want to fight this and take it all the way it will cost them a hell of a lot more that the £2k in question!!



Cheers

Its irrelevant as to whether the policy applies to all employees or not, ALL policies must be contained in the company handbook! Its not even a policy to be honest as they basically gave you a piece of paper, to which said policy was supposed to have been attached too but wasn't, asking you to sign the piece of paper (which you didn't sign) therefore that piece of paper was a contract and the policy was actually the terms and conditions of that contract! So as you didn't sign it they have no contractual right to deduct said monies.

Also as the terms and conditions were not attached to the piece of paper (as supported by your colleague as a witness and your evidence of requesting copies of the terms and not receiving them), so even if you had signed the piece of paper the lack of the terms being attached means you could not give contractual consideration to said terms and therefore can not have accepted them.

Fact is the relocation payment is a compensatory payment to cover your financial detriment that you incurred due to having to relocate on their request, a financial detriment that you would not have otherwise incurred if you had not been required to move.

I think you should just go straight to ACAS now and start early conciliation for unauthorized deductions!

[TattyJJ]

Re: Repayment of Relocation Expences

Thank you [MENTION=19071]teaboy2[/MENTION] This confirms my suspicions

The HR person who I've been dealing with and going me all this grief is away till Tuesday, so will see how things go when they are back. I've CC'd my boss and the head of HR on the email, just to make sure everything is above board. Want to make sure she's not acting independently putting up a front and trying to cover up a mistake that might well have been made by her. She was the one who actually arranged the whole relocation....

I have already been in touch with ACAS, they said it "sounded" like the company was in the wrong.
Early conciliation? They told me they couldn't do anything unless they actually withheld my pay?

[teaboy2]

Re: Repayment of Relocation Expences

Right i see, yes ACAS can only start early conciliation once the employer has with held your wages. But now you have reported the issue to ACAS they will have a record on their system, so basically next time you contact them will be to start the conciliation process, if the employer does with hold your wages that is!

[TattyJJ]

Re: Repayment of Relocation Expences

Hoping some kind of resolution will be reach today!
I'm off on holiday for 2 weeks from after tomorrow, really don't want this dragging out till after I'm back!

I'm thinking their reply is going to be along the lines of halving it and trying to get £1k out of my still.
No doubt with a very condescending tone about how they are doing me a huge favour! Ha

[teaboy2]

Re: Repayment of Relocation Expences

And i think your reply to such a, should they half their demand, would be to say "Go and get stuffed"

Though clearly if they did halve the amount they are demanding, then that would show they themselves clearly know they can not legally enforce their demands.

[TattyJJ]

Re: Repayment of Relocation Expences

That is exactly what my response will be!
If they had approached me off the bat asking for half, maybe on moral grounds, I might have been a little willing.
But after the way they have taken the total piss, I'm not going to be playing ball!

That's a very good point too!! Any willingness from them to relent now would just be a desperate attempt to get something rather than nothing....
For a company that turns over hundreds of millions and likes to sell itself as such an amazing employer who've been on the Times top 100 list, this is all a bloody joke!

[TattyJJ]

Re: Repayment of Relocation Expences

All has now been resolved!

Finally got an email back early afternoon today. While they still expressed the belief i was given the policy and aware of the clause, it was admitted they had no proof of such and back down, saying they would not be deducting anything.
Tbh i was expecting to have to fight it out a bit more before they relinquished. I'm off for 2 weeks from today, so very glad to have this out the way beforehand!

Thanks for the advice and support eace:

[teaboy2]

Re: Repayment of Relocation Expences

All has now been resolved!

Finally got an email back early afternoon today. While they still expressed the belief i was given the policy and aware of the clause, it was admitted they had no proof of such and back down, saying they would not be deducting anything.
Tbh i was expecting to have to fight it out a bit more before they relinquished. I'm off for 2 weeks from today, so very glad to have this out the way beforehand!

Thanks for the advice and support eace:

More like they knew they were pulling a fast one on you and would have no right to reclaim such fees in any case, even if they had given you the clause, as such fees are compensatory and to cover your physical relocation costs that you would not have incurred if it had not been for them requesting you relocate, they can not demand repayment just because you then decided to resign 6 months to a year down the line, as you would simply still have incurred those relocation costs at the time. And upon repaying the fees you would have been £2,000 out of pocket, a cost you would never have incurred if you hadn't been expected to relocate in the first place!

So yeah they new they were pulling a fast one - which is a bit of a ***** trick (excuse my language) to be honest - Though fortunately its ended well for you and you can now go and enjoy your holidays with peace of mind.