Help - really worried

[auntycabbage]

Hi all

I am new here and desperate for help and advice. I have been suspended on full pay pending an investigation for bringing my organisation into disrepute by making inappropriate and unfounded comments and using inappropriate language and making inappropriate accusations against another staff member. That is all I know at this stage.

I arrived at work on 3 July and was told by the Chair of our charity to go into my line manager's office and she presented me with a letter. She told me I had been suspended on full pay pending an invesitigation. She said she could not tell me anymore but that I could open the letter if I wanted to. I stated I would open it at home as if she couldn't ask questions, what was the point? They took my keys and had already taken my work phone and laptop.

Later that day, my mother phoned the office and spoke to my line manager to request some notebooks from my desk - my line manager arranged to meet my partner the following day and would provide these on receipt of a list. When he arrived, he was met at the door by my line manager and the chair who presented him with a box of my property - basically my desk had been cleared out and they had even included my mug from the kitchen. Later that day, I heard from one of my team after she received an email saying 'xxx is not currently with the business and must not be contacted etc etc'. I also heard from a colleague in another part of the organisation saying her line manager had been informed I had left the organisation 'as of yesterday' by my line manager.

I went off sick due to stress on 7 July and have provided them with a sick note (a month) but I am only entitled to 10 days full pay and 10 days half pay at work. I have already used about 6 of those full days this year. I was invited to an 'investigation hearing' on 9 July but informed them I was sick. I was told I can call witnesses but I don't know what I have done, so how can I?

I contacted them again on Friday and asked them for more detail on the allegation so that I can call witnesses but was told they feel they have given me sufficient evidence 'at this point' for me to decide if there are any witnesses. They then go on to say that as I am sick, I can provide a written submission (for what?) or have a telephone investigation meeting.

I would appreciate any guidance you could give me regarding the next stage.

This situation is not 'normal' - I have worked there for 1 year and 11.5 months - and I made a whistleblowing complaint against by line manager in January for breaches of health and safety and policy that was investigated by trustees internally very badly - and not resolved, leaving me very vulnerable. I think the reason this is being rushed through is to stop my rights on a tribunal.

Please help. I have a 9 year old girl and am so worried about our future.

xx

[matt3942]

Re: Help - really worried

Hi @auntycabbage - I am sorry to read about your situation. I suspect your presumption in the final paragraph is correct - another 6 months and you will be protected from unfair dismissal.

@teaboy2 - I'm wondering if unfair constructive dismissal because of a protected disclosure under ERA S.108(3)(ff) would be appropriate here?

- Matt

[auntycabbage]

Re: Help - really worried

Hello Matt

Thank you for replying. I meant I am 2 and a bit weeks off 2 year's service. Sorry - I wasn't very clear.

Carrie
xx

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Help - really worried

Hi all

I am new here and desperate for help and advice. I have been suspended on full pay pending an investigation for bringing my organisation into disrepute by making inappropriate and unfounded comments and using inappropriate language and making inappropriate accusations against another staff member. That is all I know at this stage.

"Bringing the company into disrepute" is often used corporate lingo to cover almost anything. Have you any idea what these allegations refer to? Posts on Facebook? Internal emails? Blog posts? or 'bad behaviour' in the office.

I arrived at work on 3 July and was told by the Chair of our charity to go into my line manager's office and she presented me with a letter. She told me I had been suspended on full pay pending an invesitigation. She said she could not tell me anymore but that I could open the letter if I wanted to. I stated I would open it at home as if she couldn't ask questions, what was the point? They took my keys and had already taken my work phone and laptop.

Later that day, my mother phoned the office and spoke to my line manager to request some notebooks from my desk - my line manager arranged to meet my partner the following day and would provide these on receipt of a list. When he arrived, he was met at the door by my line manager and the chair who presented him with a box of my property - basically my desk had been cleared out and they had even included my mug from the kitchen. Later that day, I heard from one of my team after she received an email saying 'xxx is not currently with the business and must not be contacted etc etc'. I also heard from a colleague in another part of the organisation saying her line manager had been informed I had left the organisation 'as of yesterday' by my line manager.

I went off sick due to stress on 7 July and have provided them with a sick note (a month) but I am only entitled to 10 days full pay and 10 days half pay at work. I have already used about 6 of those full days this year. I was invited to an 'investigation hearing' on 9 July but informed them I was sick. I was told I can call witnesses but I don't know what I have done, so how can I?

I contacted them again on Friday and asked them for more detail on the allegation so that I can call witnesses but was told they feel they have given me sufficient evidence 'at this point' for me to decide if there are any witnesses. They then go on to say that as I am sick, I can provide a written submission (for what?) or have a telephone investigation meeting.

Have they scheduled a disciplinary yet? It looks like they have all but dismissed you without holding a disciplinary. I went through a similar experience many years ago, although I did attend the investigation meeting and got the sick note afterwards. However, they never returned my belongings until I had been officially dismissed and never told anyone that I'd left, at least not officially, until I'd received the official termination letter which was a couple of months later.

I would appreciate any guidance you could give me regarding the next stage.

This situation is not 'normal' - I have worked there for 1 year and 11.5 months - and I made a whistleblowing complaint against by line manager in January for breaches of health and safety and policy that was investigated by trustees internally very badly - and not resolved, leaving me very vulnerable. I think the reason this is being rushed through is to stop my rights on a tribunal.

Please help. I have a 9 year old girl and am so worried about our future.

xx

If you haven't been officially dismissed yet, you are officially still employed by the company even if you are suspended. That leaves them only a couple of weeks to hold the disciplinary and officially terminate your employment before you have the required two years. :thumb: If you end up being a few days short of the two years, I should think you could convince a tribunal that it was all done deliberately to deprive you of your employment rights accrued after two years. It's even possible to convince a tribunal to hear a case where you were not officially an employee of the company.

I assume your sick note takes you over the two years. They can hold a disciplinary in your absence and dismiss you whilst still under the sick note, they did with me but I did manage to drag the whole thing out for two months (I'd been there six years so I wasn't doing it for the same reason). Basically I wrote asking for the evidence they would be relying on at the disciplinary (in my case one was scheduled from the beginning, even before the investigation meeting). I also sent a SAR and wrote to the people dealing with the dismissal (a totally different department from the data controller) saying I was awaiting my SAR. I wrote endless letters which I emailed and then sent in by post including various sick notes and arguments about the stress they'd caused me, the evidence they had, etc. and had the disciplinary postponed at least four times.

[auntycabbage]

Re: Help - really worried

Hello Flaming parrot

I think I might know what it refers to, but I know for sure there is nothing on social media, emails etc that they could find. I think it relates to something that happened on a residential weekend away that I confided in my colleague who wasn't there about - line manager's conduct with another employee. Would they need to proved disrepute though?

I have put together a SAR but am not sure what to ask for in it. Do I have to be specific about where to look for info or is 'personal data held about me' sufficient?

My sick note does take me over. And although our rubbish sick pay means I won't get much of a wage this month, I felt it was worth it because I feel slightly more protected (although I know if they really want to they can do this in my absence).

I want to put a grievance in about the way my line manager has treated me but I am not sure if I should go ahead or not.

xx

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Help - really worried

Hello Flaming parrot

I think I might know what it refers to, but I know for sure there is nothing on social media, emails etc that they could find. I think it relates to something that happened on a residential weekend away that I confided in my colleague who wasn't there about - line manager's conduct with another employee. Would they need to proved disrepute though?

I don't see how something that wasn't discussed with anyone outside the organisation or posted anywhere could 'bring the company into disrepute'. :confused2:

I have put together a SAR but am not sure what to ask for in it. Do I have to be specific about where to look for info or is 'personal data held about me' sufficient?

You'll find more or less what you have to say here: https://ico.org.uk/for-the-public/personal-information/ You'll need to adapt it to your circumstances but it gives you an idea.

My sick note does take me over. And although our rubbish sick pay means I won't get much of a wage this month, I felt it was worth it because I feel slightly more protected (although I know if they really want to they can do this in my absence)

I was advised to get the sick notes mostly to buy time rather than to get paid (I did get full pay) albeit for different reasons, mostly to gather more info from them, wait for the SAR results, etc. to find out how what exactly they did and didn't have. I did give them the run around for a couple of months.

I understand in your case no disciplinary has been scheduled yet.

I want to put a grievance in about the way my line manager has treated me but I am not sure if I should go ahead or not
.xx

I don't think it would hurt, you may want to see what ACAS has to say: http://www.acas.org.uk/grievances

[teaboy2]

Re: Help - really worried

Hi @auntycabbage - I am sorry to read about your situation. I suspect your presumption in the final paragraph is correct - another 6 months and you will be protected from unfair dismissal.

@teaboy2 - I'm wondering if unfair constructive dismissal because of a protected disclosure under ERA S.108(3)(ff) would be appropriate here?

- Matt

Yes i agree it does sound like Automatic Unfair Dismissal for making a Protected Disclosure on health and safety (section 44 ERA and Section 103 ERA as covered by section 108 (3 (ff) ERA) - As such the qualifying period doesn't apply and you can take it to tribunal regardless of length of employment. Though we need to know what alleged comments were made, and if the OP made them, and what evidence they have etc if any at all, in order to be certain.

[auntycabbage]

Re: Help - really worried

Hello all

I wanted to update you on my situation. Bascially, I have been dismissed because of something my clinical supervisor said I had said about my manager and a colleague. I did not say what she said I did and she has taken out of context what I told her - in what I believed was a clinical supervision and therefore subject to confidentiality - and elaborated on it, now saying it was not a clinical supervision. I am supposed to have said that my manager and colleague were wiping themselves down after sex, when I did not - I said I thought I had interrupted something and felt uncomfortable (meaning I went into the room and they went quiet - not the first or last time this has happened). She apparently had some notes she had written in her diary that day but did not bring this to my manager's attention until 15 weeks later. She was taking notes at the session and I would have been foolish to even hint at something like that with a person I don't really trust and who was taking notes at the time! That said, they refused to listen to any of that and it seemed a 'done deal' before I was even suspended. There is lots of reference in the statements about my whistleblowing, which they now won't recognise as whistleblowing and say I raised it informally - I did not - it was in writing and I knew by putting it in writing that it would be formal.

My concerns were raised in January this year and centered around malpractice in health and safety and safe working for staff and volunteers. I mentioned my concerns about risk assessment - lack of it - of activities, lone working, and the women and children who were visiting our centre (a service for women and girls who had experienced sexual violence), so were high support needs and suffering trauma. I had raised this several times (too many) with my manager and felt after a year it was time to escalate the process as I was not being listened to. I was managing 20 volunteers at the time and I was worried about their health and safety and working practices. I went to the Trust and asked them to investigate it. They did not - and since (in their statements for this disciplinary) have said they never believed me in the first place, but admitted it was handled badly. I understand this is a detriment.

I have some questions I am hoping someone might be able to help me with:

Will I get to see a copy of the disciplinary hearing report and minutes?
Does anyone know about applying for interim relief in these circumstances? I know I have v strict time limits to do so. I am still waiting for my dismissal letter. I was dismissed via answerphone at 5.55pm on Friday and told I was dismissed without notice from that day, but am still waiting for details of the appeal procedure.

xx

[teaboy2]

Re: Help - really worried

In answer to your questions:

Yes - you should get copies of disciplinary hearing report and miniutes though you will probably need to request these.

As for dismissal by phone, thats not good enough, they most provide written notice of your dismissal and on what grounds you were dismissed for.

As you made a protected disclosure and all this is connected to that in someway or another, then its automatic unfair dismissal. Though i believe you still only have 3 months from effective date of dismissal to issue a claim via ET, though you need to contract ACAS and use their early conciliation service (during concilication period the 3 month time limit is paused).

Read through acas code of conduct: disciplinary and grievance procedure (http://www.acas.org.uk/?articleid=2174) and tell me if they have failed to follow any part of it, such as notify you in writing about dates of hearings and right to be accompanied. We already have unfair dismissal on the basis the outcome was pre-decided, the fact they cleared your desk and handed everything to you is proof of that.

Charities are well known to have complete disregard to employment laws as they think they are above and beyond them!

[auntycabbage]

Re: Help - really worried

Hello

Thank you so much. I am waiting to appeal - once I have received my letter - but I am assuming in that letter that I put what was wrong with the process, refute the allegation etc?

I had an invite to an investigation for 9 July but my GP signed me off sick on the 7th and told me not to engage in any work-related meetings (I communicated this to them immediately). I was then sent another letter saying they would consider my evidence in another format - so written or telephone if I was unable to attend in person. I emailed them back asking how this would work - as I didn't know what I had done, how could I write about it? And as far as the telephone hearing went, I asked how it would work, who would be calling me and how minutes would be taken etc. The response I got to these questions was to not answer and simply say 'we are going ahead with the meeting as planned' and basically ignored my evidence. The first time I was able to give my evidence was at the disciplinary hearing. My rep and I explained the process had been very one-sided and I was not allowed witnesses. The HR person seemed to agree, which is why I want to see the disciplinary report. They mention in the statements from the investigation that the outcome will be 'swift and severe' and that the whole process has to be 'squeaky clean incase it is challenged later'. They went ahead whilst I was off sick - I do appreciate they can - but this in my and my rep's opinion was because I was so close to my 2 year's service (2 years on 3 August, dismissed by answerphone on 24 July).

I know I can apply for interim relief but am not sure whether to do this or not as I understand I have a really teeny time limit to do so.

[teaboy2]

Re: Help - really worried

Hello

Thank you so much. I am waiting to appeal - once I have received my letter - but I am assuming in that letter that I put what was wrong with the process, refute the allegation etc?

I had an invite to an investigation for 9 July but my GP signed me off sick on the 7th and told me not to engage in any work-related meetings (I communicated this to them immediately). I was then sent another letter saying they would consider my evidence in another format - so written or telephone if I was unable to attend in person. I emailed them back asking how this would work - as I didn't know what I had done, how could I write about it? And as far as the telephone hearing went, I asked how it would work, who would be calling me and how minutes would be taken etc. The response I got to these questions was to not answer and simply say 'we are going ahead with the meeting as planned' and basically ignored my evidence. The first time I was able to give my evidence was at the disciplinary hearing. My rep and I explained the process had been very one-sided and I was not allowed witnesses. The HR person seemed to agree, which is why I want to see the disciplinary report. They mention in the statements from the investigation that the outcome will be 'swift and severe' and that the whole process has to be 'squeaky clean incase it is challenged later'. They went ahead whilst I was off sick - I do appreciate they can - but this in my and my rep's opinion was because I was so close to my 2 year's service (2 years on 3 August, dismissed by answerphone on 24 July).

I know I can apply for interim relief but am not sure whether to do this or not as I understand I have a really teeny time limit to do so.

Ring them Friday and ask them where your letter notifying you of dismissal and termination date is! Also contact ACAS too!

[Mr $quandaŁot]

Re: Help - really worried

Investigation = finding grounds for gross misconduct.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Help - really worried

Hello

Thank you so much. I am waiting to appeal - once I have received my letter - but I am assuming in that letter that I put what was wrong with the process, refute the allegation etc?

I had an invite to an investigation for 9 July but my GP signed me off sick on the 7th and told me not to engage in any work-related meetings (I communicated this to them immediately). I was then sent another letter saying they would consider my evidence in another format - so written or telephone if I was unable to attend in person. I emailed them back asking how this would work - as I didn't know what I had done, how could I write about it? And as far as the telephone hearing went, I asked how it would work, who would be calling me and how minutes would be taken etc. The response I got to these questions was to not answer and simply say 'we are going ahead with the meeting as planned' and basically ignored my evidence. The first time I was able to give my evidence was at the disciplinary hearing. My rep and I explained the process had been very one-sided and I was not allowed witnesses. The HR person seemed to agree, which is why I want to see the disciplinary report. They mention in the statements from the investigation that the outcome will be 'swift and severe' and that the whole process has to be 'squeaky clean incase it is challenged later'. They went ahead whilst I was off sick - I do appreciate they can - but this in my and my rep's opinion was because I was so close to my 2 year's service (2 years on 3 August, dismissed by answerphone on 24 July).

They can hold a disciplinary in your absence and dismiss you whilst off sick, that was done to me many years ago and it wasn't a part of my ET claim. However, they never said anything to me about the outcome of the meeting until I received the official termination letter in the post, a week or maybe even two later. It wasn't dated the day of the disciplinary, they made it sound like they gave the whole thing due consideration, took their time, etc. The letter will have the effective date of termination. I'm aware that you may have a case for whistleblowing but even without that element, the tribunal is likely to take into account the timing of your dismissal less than 10 days before you were due to be there for two years. That can hardly be a coincidence.

I know I can apply for interim relief but am not sure whether to do this or not as I understand I have a really teeny time limit to do so.

If you intend to apply for interim relief you are exempt from ACAS early conciliation. You need to make the application within 7 days. If you haven't received official written notification of dismissal you may still be in time. ray: You need to fill in the usual ET1 form.

With regards to interim relief, you may way to look at Raja v Secretary of State for Justice

[auntycabbage]

Re: Help - really worried

Hello again

I have been away for a while in beautiful Cornwall trying to have a holiday in amongst all of this horribleness. I have looked into the ACAS guidelines and cannot see any obvious breaches. But the investigator did mention the outcome would be 'swift and severe' and told a colleague of mine that I had told someone about her inappropriate relationship with another colleague and upset her at the investigation - this was alleged and should never have been represented in that way. She also told her that the trustees were concerned about me working with vulnerable women, which again should not have been discussed. (I have to add here that there is absolutely nothing whatsoever wrong with me - that hurt very much indeed). I tried to participate in the investigation meeting but I was signed off sick by my GP with work-related stress and he said I was not to attend any work related meetings. This was for a month. Work offered me an alternative of a telephone call or written submission but they did not give me assurances of confidentiality etc so I felt unable to participate. When I questioned them about how this would work, the reply was simply that they were going ahead with the original meeting date (which had been suggested to me as a provisional, not definite date) - so for me this was tokenism which they never wanted to deliver on really. The first time I got to state my case was the disciplinary hearing.

I finally got my dismissal letter on 30 July by recorded delivery, although they are saying they served me notice on 24 July - which they did by telephone and email, but as far as I am concerned, I did not receive notice until the 30 July, which is 4 days before my 2 year's full service. I have found some case law regarding serving notices and the fact that an employee is only considered to receive it either at a meeting verbally or in writing, so I think I can challenge this one.

I am meeting my union rep again on Thursday morning to look at the appeal. But would appreciate any guidance you could offer regarding appealing.

I feel absolutely terrible and have never been treated like this in my entire career. It is really hard to stay focused and strong.

[auntycabbage]

Re: Help - really worried

Oh - and forgot to add - I was refused witnesses at the disciplinary. I wanted to bring in some volunteers who I managed to confirm how I worked professionally etc, but they said it was irrelevant - even though one of the 'charges' was that I had called volunteers liars. I loved my team and was well-respected by them and vice versa. The main witness was the chair of our trust who they said was unavailable and they were unable to contact her and she had been out of the country. She was a massive witness for me, as a lot of what was discussed involved her. I felt this disadvantaged me too. The person carrying out the hearing spoke to one of the witnesses on the phone who had given a statement about me but we were not allowed to question her. It all felt very one-sided.