Apprentice asked to pay back training cost

[Lafabe01]

Hi everyone

I would greatly appreciate any help from you in regards to my case below:

I was employed as an apprentice and the terms of my employment were that I had to undertake all the work required to complete the frame work which meant going to College or university and also some work based reports and assesment. after starting with the company under the assumption as stated in the offer letter that they will pay for all the training.

When i started the course chosen by the company at a university chosen by the company we were given a letter to sign as below:

I am pleased to confirm the basis which the company will support your participation in the (course i did) year 1 and year 2 which you started (date) and complete in (date) at the cost of (££££).

1. Upon commencement of the course the company will pay the total costs related to your course, examination and institution fees. If you should fail to complete the course or chose to leave the company mid-course this sum will be payable to the company at that time.
2. Upon completion of the course, should you choose to leave the company you will be required to repay the following amounts: between 0 and 12 months 100%, between 12 and 24 months 66% and between 24 and 36 months 33%.

I trust the above is satisfactory. I am pleased that you are advancing your education and I wish you every success with the course.

Please sign below to confirm that you agree to the terms in this letter.

Name:
Signature:
Date:

I have had to sign this letter each year unti completion. I have now left the company and the reason being that Since I started I have asked many times how much will be earning when we finish the apprenticeship however the company refused to tell us a figure so we had assume its enough at it had to be any amount they wish. I have found another company that has been upfront and told me my salary and how it will rise yearly working in a different field of my apprenticeship and I am being asked to pay back all the money they paid for.

Another point to make is that the course chosen was meant to be part of the framework, however after starting the assessor realised/mentioned that it does not conform to the frame work meaning we had been sent to do the wrong course that when I finish I could not use anything i have learnt to use to benefit the company meaning to me it was a wrong investment.

Could you please advise if it is possible to come out of this without paying considering i was on minimum wage not actaully salary until I qualified which there was never a written document to say what constitutes that you are qualified and are fully competent. I learnt how to fully do my job within a few months and still was being payed a small amount just because of the qualification and I understand why.

Could anyone advise in terms of what is the law of recouping training cost and how can i challenge this or if it is lawfull and enforceable.

[teaboy2]

Re: Apprentice asked to pay back training cost

I think this is one for [MENTION=67649]matt3942[/MENTION] as hes more experiences in regards to apprenticeships and what can and can not be part of your employment contract when your an apprentice.

[matt3942]

Re: Apprentice asked to pay back training cost

Thanks, [MENTION=19071]teaboy2[/MENTION] and hello, [MENTION=45911]Lafabe01[/MENTION]

An employer may ask an apprentice to repay the employer's contribution towards the cost of providing training. As usual this has to be a genuine estimate of the employer's cost or it becomes a financial penalty, which is not enforceable.

As far as I know, if you were a Government funded apprentice, your employer cannot use any funding they received for your training in their calculations.

Can you tell us what framework you were mean to be working towards, and what qualification(s) you were doing in college?

- Matt

[Lafabe01]

Re: Apprentice asked to pay back training cost

I was doing the Advanced apprenticeship and when I got employed my contract said I will be doing an ONC however the company decided since I had an ONC already I should go for a HNC engineering at a local university which we realised later that it did not conform to the AA framework so I had to do extra units at college and they had to map them with my previous ONC I had already when I got employed. As to whether I was on the government funded apprenticeship or not I wouldn't know as I was not made aware of it and my assumptions were that all apprenticeships are funded by the government but im not too sure.

[Lafabe01]

Re: Apprentice asked to pay back training cost

Since I started I have always asked what my wages will be on completions so I can plan my life ahead by no one said and also there was no paper work to mention so it was what they wanted pretty much you couldn't argue. And the close for making the apprentice pay back when they finish feels as penalty as they try to force you to stay at a low wage.

Most companies tell you what you will be on completion or how much rise you get every years that way you can plan your life ahead not feeling the company is trying to keep you on a low wage and if you try to leave then you get to pay all the money back which is unfair. that's what caused me to leave.

I completed my NVQ 3 and was not promoted I was still a trainee, I did my job and was good at it and never had any problems however there was nothing on paper to dectate what I needed to move on from a trainee level. So this means tho I finished my certificate to prove completence I was still getting paid a low wage.

[matt3942]

Re: Apprentice asked to pay back training cost

Hi [MENTION=45911]Lafabe01[/MENTION]

I'm slightly confused now - the main aim of an Advanced Apprenticeship is a Level 3 qualification. Do you know exactly what framework you were working towards, i.e. what was the Apprenticeship actually in?

An HNC is a Level 4 qualification, which is usually only funded through a Higher Apprenticeship. I'm not familiar with the term ONC (despite working in Apprenticeship management for 10+ years). Can you tell me what qualification this is exactly?

Was your assessor employed by your employer or by the college/training provider? Have you had to complete progress reviews every 12 weeks?

Were you employed on an Apprenticeship Contract, or under an Apprenticeship Agreement? You may not know the difference but if you upload a copy of your contract I can (hopefully) tell you. Remember to blank out any information that can identify you or your employer.

- Mat

[Lafabe01]

Re: Apprentice asked to pay back training cost

The apprenticeship certificate i have states it is an Advanced level Apprenticeship in Engineering Manufacture (Technical support) in the science, Engineering and Manufacturing Technologies and it was issued by SEMTA.

ONC is a National certificate which is 12 unit for those on day release rather than the National diploma which is 18 units are they are both NVQ level 3.

The list of Qualifications I received are the general key skills english level 2, maths level 2, ict level 2, employment rights and responsibilities, personal learning and thinking skills, NVQ level 3 Extended diploma in engineering technical support (quality control) and finally the BTEC National diploma which was mapped from my previous qualifications when i joined the company and some extra units that I had to do when the College Assessor realised the HNC proposed by the company does not conform to the AA framework.

Below is my offer letter i received when I applied for the job and a principle statement after it

OFFER OF EMPLOYMENT


Further to your interview with XXXX and myself, I have pleasure in offering you the salaried position of Trainee Technician with COMPANY NAME) In this position, you will report to XXXX, who will define your duties in more detail when you join the company.


As discussed at the interview as part of the job offer you will be offered an apprenticeship
which will involve you:


 Embarking upon and completing an ONC in Engineering through day release to a local
college or academic institution


 Completing a work based NVQ3 qualification in parallel with the ONC, which will involve
you collating evidence and tasks relative to the job in hand


You will be receiving on the job training and the company will pay the full cost for the ONC and
the NVQ3.


We will expect you to complete all courses you have been signed up for, attend all day releases
unless you have given prior warning of an emergency and complete all academic work that is
required from the academic institution you have been assigned to. Failure to follow the
requirements of the courses will lead to a formal investigation and action could be taken if no
justifiable reasons are highlighted.


The salary offered is £XXXX per annum, and you will also qualify for any relevant bonus
scheme which operates within the company, although you should note that such schemes may
be modified or withdrawn by the Company at any time and will be pro-rata due to your start
date. Salaries are reviewed annually on (Date) and your first annual review will be (date).


Your salary will generally be paid directly by credit transfer into a bank account of your choice
approximately one week before the end of each month.


You will be based at (ADDRESS). The standard working week is 37.5 hours and your normal hours work will be 8.30am to 4.30pm Monday to Friday. However due to the nature of your role, this will vary from time to time, and
on occasion you will be expected to work in excess of these hours.

[Lafabe01]

Re: Apprentice asked to pay back training cost

PRINCIPAL STATEMENT OF TERMS OF EMPLOYMENT

Employer	XXXXXXXX
1. Name, address and telephone number of employee	XXXXXX
2. Date employment began with the Company	XXXXX
3. Date any previous employment began if this is to count as continuous employment	N/A
4. Job Title	Trainee Technician
5. Duties	The Company may add to or alter your duties from time to time, as business needs require.
6. Responsible to	Senior QA Engineer – XXXX
7. Place of Work	Employers address
8. Starting rate of pay	£XXXX per annum
9. Frequency, timing and method of pay	Paid monthly in arrears by credit transfer direct to your bank, approximately one week before the end of each calendar month.
10. Entitlement to overtime pay including rates	You may be entitled to payment for overtime if it is agreed with your manager.
11. Probationary Period	Assessment: Confirmation of your employment with the Company will be subject to your satisfactorily serving a probationary period (normally 3 months), unless otherwise stated in your offer letter. Termination: During any probationary period your employment may be terminated by either you or the Company by giving one week’s written notice, which may be without recourse to the normal disciplinary procedures. Change of Job Description: If you change your job within the Company, you may be subject to another probationary period in respect of the change, however, your notice period will be calculated by reference to your total service with the Company.
12. Date of Salary Review	XXXXX each year (next review XXXX)
13. Normal Hours of Work	08.30 a.m. to 4.30 p.m. Monday to Friday with a 30 minute unpaid lunch break. NB You may also be required to work such additional hours as may be necessary for the proper performance of your duties or to meet the particular business requirements of the Company and its customers.
14. Lateness	You shall not be entitled to receive pay for time lost due to late arrival at work.
15. Holiday Entitlement	In addition to Bank and Public Holidays, 23 working days in each calendar year to be taken in accordance with the rules detailed in the Company Handbook.
16. Sick Pay	In addition to the Statutory Sick Pay Scheme for which the qualifying days will be Monday to Friday, the Company operates a discretionary Sick Pay Scheme, details of which are given in the company Handbook.
17. Notice to terminate employment	Your contract is for an indefinite period but subject to written notice on either side as follows: During your probationary period, one week’s notice, see Section 11. Up to 2 years service – one month Over 2 years service – the longer of one month or one week for each complete year of continuous employment, subject to a maximum of 12 weeks. If you give notice to the Company to terminate your employment or you are given notice by the Company, it may be possible, by mutual agreement, to waive the formal periods of notice. The Company has the right to dismiss you without notice in the case of gross misconduct. The Company reserves the right to make deductions from your salary upon leaving or otherwise to reclaim any outstanding monies owed by you to the Company. The Company shall have the right during the period of notice or any part thereof, to place you on leave, paying you during this period your normal salary and benefits. There are conditions which govern your actions following termination of your employment. These are important and full details can be found in the Company Handbook under paragraph 35.
18. Disciplinary, Capability and Grievance Procedures	A copy of the procedures applicable to you are included in the Company Handbook, of copy of which has been issued to you and/or available on request from your department manager.
19. Data Protection Act	I understand that the company may hold personal data in relation to my employment with the Company and be required to process data within the requirements of the Data Protection Act 1998. Should your personal circumstances change, you should notify your manager/supervisor immediately.
Pensions	The Company, in accordance with its legal requirement provides access to a Personal Pension through the stakeholder principle. If you are interested in taking up such an opportunity you should contact the Accounts Department.
Collective Agreements	There are no collective agreements, which affect the terms and conditions of your employment.

This document constitutes your statement of particulars of employment as required under section 1 of the Employment Rights Act 1996. This statement and the attached copy of the Company Handbook together form the terms and conditions of your employment. You should acquaint yourself with the content of all these documents. In the event of any conflict, the offer letter will prevail.



Signed …………………………..… (Employer) Date …………………………………


I accept this Statement, a copy of which has been given to me. I have also received a copy of the Company Handbook which I understand is part of “Terms of Employment”



Signed ……………………………. (Employee) Date …………………………………

[Lafabe01]

Re: Apprentice asked to pay back training cost

When i left i wrote a letter mensioning that I felt pressured with them trying to make me sign the papers with things i did not agree to and that I do no consent for them to contact my new employer and finally that I will get back to them within 2 weeks and in the begining of the first week she sent an email to the director of my new company saying my number is not working and can she ask me to contact her which I believe will probably raise eye brows of my new employer why they would contact her and then on friday I received an email as below:

Today is the deadline for when you should have returned a signed copy of the agreement to repay the fees for your HNC which you owe the company as you resigned within weeks of finishing the course. You have not responded to the email below and I have tried calling you on the new mobile number you supplied me with and it is not in service. I have contacted your Managing Director of your new company to ask her to forward a message on to you asking you to contact me a couple of days ago but I have not heard from you to date.

I would urge you to get in contact soon. You confirmed before you left that you will be moving and we do not have a new address for you. If I do not hear from you by the end of today and if we cannot contact you at your new address in the future we will be sending any letters to you in care of your new employer unless you provide us with a forwarding address.


Kind regards



.................................................. ........................

Remember I mentioned to her before I left that contacting my new employer has the potential of prejiducing my chancess of employment however regardless the deadline for me to consult legal advice hadnt passed she went on to do it. So I have not replied and Very annoyed why they would even do such a thing and threaten me in such a way when only what I wanted to seek was legal advice which I believe I am intitled to.

[matt3942]

Re: Apprentice asked to pay back training cost

Hi [MENTION=45911]Lafabe01[/MENTION]

Okay, I would say you were on an Apprenticeship Contract; however, that's not terribly significant now that I've read your contract.

If you have never been paid the salary stated in your contract you would potentially have a claim for breach of contract and unlawful deductions from wages. Nowhere does it state you will be paid the NMW until you qualify.

Also, nowhere does it state in your contract that you will be required to complete an HNC. Was the HNC discussed and agreed with you before you started it? Was it suggested you would not be able to continue in your role without completing the HNC?

- Matt

[Lafabe01]

Re: Apprentice asked to pay back training cost

I enrolled on the HNC as part of the AA framework and If I had not completed it then I wouldnt have fulfilled the apprenticeship framework, however half way throught the HNC it was discovered it did not conform to the framework so I had to do extra units and use my old ONC certificate to fullfilthe framework criteria

[Lafabe01]

Re: Apprentice asked to pay back training cost

There was no discussion before I started the job that I will have to perfome a HNC however when I started and was adviced that I will have to do it as part of my AA framework and within nontime we were given a letter to sign saying if I leave winthing a space of 3 years of completing the HNC (only HNC was stated on that paparer)I would have to pay all the amount back. What option did I have to sign it? I had left a job paying more assuming an apprenticeship is payed for the government later to realise this. In the offer letterit clearly states they will pay all they did not put any conditions and once we started the put conditions which I believe is not right not to disclose all the information to someone before they start employment. It said in the offer letter that there will have to look into some acions if I do not do my duties as stated and the HNC was part of the framework if I refused to sign it, because I was under the apprenticeship contract they had the right to suck me I believe so I did not have much of an option.

Looking at that no I asked to seek legal advice and they are already contacting my employer and sending me threats what option did I have knowing I was still a freshy. We were not given time to consider as I was told to sign it there and there.

[matt3942]

Re: Apprentice asked to pay back training cost

Hi [MENTION=45911]Lafabe01[/MENTION]

I would write to the employer stating that you were compelled to complete the HNC, which was not part of the Advanced Apprenticeship framework, and which was not a condition of employment. I would also add that you did not receive the salary stated in your contract, which constitutes a breach of contract and unlawful deductions from wages.

If you simply want to put this behind you I would make an offer to forgo any claim for breach of contract and unlawful deductions from wages if the employer agrees forgo any monies that are deemed to be owed by you.

I'm assuming you didn't receive the salary stated in your contract, even though you haven't confirmed this. You should also be aware that there's a risk this will incense the employer, which may make it more determined.

- Matt

[Lafabe01]

Re: Apprentice asked to pay back training cost

I have received the salary stated the only thing I was saying there was no mention of how much we would be earning on completion of the HNC or any intervals and when we asked the HR went around in circles and concluded that we give good incentives. Could you please list for me the grounds I may be able to go back to them and argue the case in terms of apprenticeship agreement and everything else i have stated above

[matt3942]

Re: Apprentice asked to pay back training cost

Hi [MENTION=45911]Lafabe01[/MENTION] - my apologies, I misunderstood what you had said earlier.

The only argument you have is that the HNC was not a condition of employment, i.e. it was not stated in the job offer as a requirement of the job, and it is not a requirement of the Advanced Apprenticeship framework. You could add that you felt compelled to agree to complete the HNC as you were made to feel that your continuous employment depended on it.

TBH this is a somewhat weak argument but it might be enough.

IMO it would have been better if you had refused to sign the pay-back agreement. As an apprentice on an apprenticeship contract you are protected from dismissal for the duration of your apprenticeship (except in specific circumstances) so you would have been able to bring a claim for unfair dismissal.

Please let us know what you decide to do and what happens next.

- Matt