Job offer - lower salary than males

[Amethyst]

Re: Job offer - lower salary than males

Hi

It COULD be discrimination, but without ALL the facts it is impossible to assert that confidently - thus the advice to seek formal legal advice is correct.

Earlier in the OP's posts she mentioned that they had stated it was a 'risk' issue - which really could mean anything, but there could be issues with previous employers/references as much as it could be due to sex (risk of maternity leave etc for example).

If the OP is not happy with the pay offer she has done the correct thing in challenging it, only she can decide whether she wishes to take the job on the basis of the terms offered, or risk having the offer withdrawn by challenging the salary offer.

One thing I'd like to know though is if she turns down the position due to the salary difference and suspects this is due solely to her being female, what would the procedure be for making a discrimination complaint ?

[matt3942]

Re: Job offer - lower salary than males

Hi [MENTION=6]Amethyst[/MENTION]

Thank you for your post.

In reply to your question, I would urge the OP to seek professional legal advice with a view to bringing a claim of direct discrimination.

- Matt

[teaboy2]

Re: Job offer - lower salary than males

@teaboy2 - I have advised the OP in my previous posts, if there is no genuine material factor, to seek professional legal advice, as this would constitute an equal pay issue. I have tried to be pragmatic with my advice and cover all possible outcomes because I don't know the facts, only what the OP has posted.

- Matt

Yes and i appreciate that Matt. Though my advice is based on what the OP has told us and as a result i can not see what "Risk" (as ame mentioned, which i had considered earlier in the thread) there could be (Maternity Risk would be sexual discrimination). Therefore even though its legal to have different pay grades based on experience and qualifications it wasn't relevant to the OP's circumstances (hence why i never mentioned it), because (as per she told us) she is the most experienced of the 3 and has the same or higher qualifications and the roles being exactly the same or near similar yet shes the one offered 10-15K less then lesser experienced male applicants. So based on what the OP told us, she should be the one on 10-15K (well may be not as much as that) more than the other 2 - Unless of course the basic salary was 75K - 100K+ which i very much doubt it is, as the OP wouldn't be here seeking advice if that was the kinda annual salary she was on, instead shed be straight to her solicitor/lawyers office!

If there was any misconduct in previous employment, then it wasn't mentioned by the employer when she challenged the employer about the salary differences, which beg the question as to why no reason/explanation has been forthcoming (which likely because the employers found themselves in a hole here and had no justifiable reason). Not only that, i do not see how such risk (if it was related to previous employment record) would justify the difference in pay level i.e. 10-15k less offered to her than what was offered to the male applicants.

Off course the OP may not have been 100% honest with us here, though i certainly am not saying she is a liar. At the end of the day advice given can only be as good as the details given to us by those seeking help. Whilst getting legal advice is the correct advice, it can also be costly. Where its unlikely the OP would face paying any legal costs taking the matter to tribunal (there is no qualifying period for discrimination claims) on her own, as the majority do. Though my Advice would be to go through ACAS and seek mediation which is a free service, and who knows either the employer will agree to pay her the same rate or similar rate that she would be happy with, or offer her a financial settlement!

[matt3942]

Re: Job offer - lower salary than males

[MENTION=19071]teaboy2[/MENTION] - thank you for your reply.

At no point have I said this isn't a case of discrimination, but I can't say with certainty that it is - I am simply covering all bases because there are too many unknowns to be able to give definite advice.

Obtaining legal advice doesn't need to be costly - in the first instance I would suggest the OP contact an employment law specialist at Citizens Advice to determine if there are sufficient grounds to bring a claim.

- Matt

[teaboy2]

Re: Job offer - lower salary than males

@teaboy2 - thank you for your reply.

At no point have I said this isn't a case of discrimination, but I can't say with certainty that it is - I am simply covering all bases because there are too many unknowns to be able to give definite advice.

Obtaining legal advice doesn't need to be costly - in the first instance I would suggest the OP contact an employment law specialist at Citizens Advice to determine if there are sufficient grounds to bring a claim.

- Matt

Hi [MENTION=67649]matt3942[/MENTION] - I wasn't saying you were saying it wasn't a case of discrimination and i totally appreciate your point of view here, as its good to have differences in points of view as it gives the OP's a better understanding than what just one point of view would.

What i was just trying to point out though, in my last couple of posts, was why i didn't feel it necessary to bring the lawfulness of different pay grades in to it. As when based on the OP's circumstances the lawfulness wouldn't be relevant to her situation due to her being the most experienced and of same or higher qualification then the two male applicants, it would have only been relevant if she was on 10-15K more than the two male applicants or if there was a difference in the role she was offered and the role the male applicants were offered, which isn't the case.

Basically you used that lawfulness of different pay grades to argue that you didn't think it was an automatic case of discrimination (impmlying it could be but just as likely may not be). Yet when based on what the OP had said, in the first post and subsequent posts, it is a clear case of discrimination i my opinion - Unless the employer where to give her a satisfactory explanation as to what they meant when they referred to as "Risk". Which as i stated in my last post, i believe because they didn't give any explanation it is because they do not have a justifiable or reasonable one to give - My assumption is backed up by their offer of a bond agreement (basically upping her salary by making her an investor to which the company would be indebted to) and that they claimed the salary offered was based on her CV originally, where her CV would simply show her past experience, qualifications and employment record of where she has worked before (it won't have included disciplinary records). Therefore to me they are making up excuses and trying to wriggle out of this - The bond agreement offer nails it for me, as its an alternative to paying her the same salary, but its basically an investment and it carries risks, like all investments do. So there is no guarantee she would earn the same amount of money, as a result of the return on the bond agreement on top off her salary (as currently been offered) each year, as her male colleagues earn on a their salary alone, by agreeing to such a bond agreement.

I agree getting legal advice is the best route, though not all CAB centres have employment lawyers, and not all solicitors firms have them either. Finding one to give free advice isn't always easy. That's why i believe ACAS is the best route, as they deal in employment matters day in and day out, and whilst they may not be employment lawyers they are employment mediators and in a lot of cases one call from them to the employer can be enough to resolve matters. Off course, am not saying one call will resolve this issue, but the other benefit of ACAS being on bored is that ACAS are the first step to tribunal and employers therefore know the employee or the OP in this case is serious about the matter.

Yes its good to get all the facts from the OP, but as i said earlier advice given can only be as good as what the OP has told us. In every single thread here in the employment section we never know all the facts, if we just referred everyone to an employment lawyer or CAB etc etc, then we might as well close the employment section down and replace it with a sign saying "For employment advice, seek an Employment Lawyer or advice from CAB or Acas"! Basically it doesn't matter if we don't know all the facts, as our advice is only as good as what the OP tells us, therefore if they lie to us or not tell us the full story or facts, and the advice as a result is wrong, even though its correct or good advice based on what the OP told us, then we wouldn't be liable for the OP losing any claim or their job. As if they don't tell us the full story or all the facts or indeed they have lied to us when seeking our advice then they have only themselves to blame!

Anyway I think it best we now just wait for the OP to get back to us with an update or further information.

[Mrssweety]

Re: Job offer - lower salary than males

Hello, thanks again for your posts. I didn't mean to cause a ruck!
Firstly, I'd just like to point out that I'm not lying about information. Why would anyone come on to an anonymous forum for advice and lie?! I started off with basic information mainly because I don't want to spill my guts from the off.
Secondly, a few other details. The salary range for this job is in fact £75-105k (I certainly don't have any fancy lawyers though!). When contacted I was told (by the same guy I'm talking to now) that based on my CV/ experience I should expect to go on to the scale at around the £90-95k mark. When in fact the company offered £71k increasing to £78 on completion of training. I've been unemployed for a few weeks having returned from working abroad (exact same job and one of the other successful applicants is actually still working in the same country). I have been approached about a couple of lower paid jobs but I really want to this one. It's more challenging (comparatively in this industry) and subsequently the pay is better.
Today I accepted the offer of the job with the scope to challenge the salary on completion of my training (I didn't tell them that though).

Unless, in your opinion, any of these details change anything?

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, I haven't been asked for references or anything yet. I've never been issued a bad reference in my life. Nor have I ever had any problems with my work.

[matt3942]

Re: Job offer - lower salary than males

Thanks [MENTION=67555]Mrssweety[/MENTION]

Just to clarify, at no point did I suggest you had lied about anything.

My point was that this issue depends on the male applicants having been offered a higher starting salary, and it seems to me you have only their word that they were.

Also, with a salary range of £75,000-£105,000, a difference of £10,000-£15,000 could be justified by a genuine material factor. Again, I'm not suggesting you have lied about the difference in qualifications and experience, but A) relevance can be subjective, and B) this might not have been the material factor.

If you want to pursue this issue you need to determine exactly what the other applicants were offered, and why, which I understand you are attempting to do. Without this information our advice is speculative.

- Matt

[teaboy2]

Re: Job offer - lower salary than males

Whilst i agree in general with Matt - Based on the lack of explanation as to why less experienced and/or lesser qualified males were offered 10-15K more, in what you stated was a male dominated industry, them am still airing on discrimination - If there was a legitimate reason then why haven't they given you their reasoning, hence my suspicion its discrimination - But its a speculative suspicion, but i can not see it being anything else since they have failed to give you an explanation for it!