Long Term Sick Concerns

[rtbm]

Hello,
I have been on long-term sick for the majority of the year and I am concerned that if my company wish to dismiss me, which in future they may, dependant on how long my recovery process takes, that they could take it upon themselves to dismiss me for gross misconduct.

I'm not sure I've got this right, but I was given a first warning back in June time, I think. This was for an incident on Face Book and I said I was not culpable, but they went ahead anyway.

My concern is that if I was to attend a disciplinary for dismissal, that a gross misconduct charge might be the result, but the thing is, surely being on long term sick is not grounds for gross misconduct? It would have to be something of an extremely serious nature and my situation is totally different, surely?

I have requested a meeting with work and am due to see my General Practitioner on Friday, all being well, to see where I stand in terms of recovery progress.

Thanks for your advice.

[teaboy2]

Re: Long Term Sick Concerns

No they can not dismiss you for gross misconduct.

They can however dismiss you on capability grounds, but as they have not requested the meeting i wouldn't worry to much about it. Plus they would have to be very careful when proceeding with disciplinary on capability grounds!

Also, please can you keep your posts to just one thread and not start new threads for every question you have. It keeps things simple then and is much yes confusing for those of us trying to help you on your other thread!

[rtbm]

Re: Long Term Sick Concerns

Sure thing, Teaboy, will do! Thank you for your help!

[rtbm]

Re: Long Term Sick Concerns

Good morning,

I am due to return to work on Monday 12 January and I have some questions that I need to be answered.

1. I am concerned because I have just come off the back of long-term sickness and suffered significant stress, due to a workplace investigation. I have expressed concerns about fear of retribution as well - I know when I went back in July, I was subject to some inappropriate circumstances - I have mentioned this to my workplace. Therefore, I can expect to work in an environment where I am free from any potential behaviour that is negative and linked to the investigation from last year?

2. I have asked for work to look into the potential of a job transfer, should I feel that returning to work is not an option for me at my current department, because, as I hope you can appreciate, this has left a mental scar on me and totally transformed me as a person - generally, my physical health, apart from my illness, wasn't affected by the investigation. Should my workplace be helping me find alternate employment within the organisation or within their remit (e.g. a nearby establishment), if I feel I am unable to return to work in an environment which has caused me a lot of angst within the past year?

3. If I came to the conclusion that I should resign, should I consider asking my workplace for some type of conclusive compensation package first? What would me the most advisable thing to do? I am a civil servant as well. Would this make a difference to me and what options are available to me, should I decide to hand in my notice or otherwise?

4. In regards to holiday pay, if you are on long term sick, its my understanding you are still able to take leave and be paid for it? Are there any notable exceptions to this rule?

I am going to make a decision on my future this weekend, so we'll see what occurs.

[teaboy2]

Re: Long Term Sick Concerns

Good morning,

I am due to return to work on Monday 12 January and I have some questions that I need to be answered.

1. I am concerned because I have just come off the back of long-term sickness and suffered significant stress, due to a workplace investigation. I have expressed concerns about fear of retribution as well - I know when I went back in July, I was subject to some inappropriate circumstances - I have mentioned this to my workplace. Therefore, I can expect to work in an environment where I am free from any potential behaviour that is negative and linked to the investigation from last year?

All employers have a duty of care to protect employees from being discriminated against (victimisation in your case) and from being harassed and bullied. So if you do have any incidents connected to the previous investigation, report them to your employer straight away.

2. I have asked for work to look into the potential of a job transfer, should I feel that returning to work is not an option for me at my current department, because, as I hope you can appreciate, this has left a mental scar on me and totally transformed me as a person - generally, my physical health, apart from my illness, wasn't affected by the investigation. Should my workplace be helping me find alternate employment within the organisation or within their remit (e.g. a nearby establishment), if I feel I am unable to return to work in an environment which has caused me a lot of angst within the past year?

Employers have a obligation under the equality act 2010 to make reasonable adjustments to help you return to work and prevent your symptoms from becoming inflamed and therefore make you feel worse by returning to work. A transfer to another department so long as agreed by you is an acceptable alternative to making reasonable adjustments, but should be last case scenario, and can only be used if a position is available!

3. If I came to the conclusion that I should resign, should I consider asking my workplace for some type of conclusive compensation package first? What would me the most advisable thing to do? I am a civil servant as well. Would this make a difference to me and what options are available to me, should I decide to hand in my notice or otherwise?

Its always worth asking, i don't believe your being a civil servant would make any difference to your rights compared to the majority of the workforce in regards to resigning and your monetary entitlements.

4. In regards to holiday pay, if you are on long term sick, its my understanding you are still able to take leave and be paid for it? Are there any notable exceptions to this rule?

There is no exceptions. Your holiday pay is accrued per day your employed, regardless of if you work those days, take a day as a holiday or if your on sick. You still accrue holidays for each day you contracted to work. So for example if your work 9-5 5 days a week, but take 1 day off sick. You still accrue the same amount of holiday entitlement for that week as any other week where you had no days off.

And yes your still entitled to take holidays when off sick. Many people will ask for a days holiday when calling in sick, instead of losing pay for that day, especially when they get no sick pay for the first 3 consecutive days they are off sick.

I am going to make a decision on my future this weekend, so we'll see what occurs.

See above

[krypton]

Re: Long Term Sick Concerns

Good morning,

I am due to return to work on Monday 12 January and I have some questions that I need to be answered.

1. I am concerned because I have just come off the back of long-term sickness and suffered significant stress, due to a workplace investigation. I have expressed concerns about fear of retribution as well - I know when I went back in July, I was subject to some inappropriate circumstances - I have mentioned this to my workplace. Therefore, I can expect to work in an environment where I am free from any potential behaviour that is negative and linked to the investigation from last year?

2. I have asked for work to look into the potential of a job transfer, should I feel that returning to work is not an option for me at my current department, because, as I hope you can appreciate, this has left a mental scar on me and totally transformed me as a person - generally, my physical health, apart from my illness, wasn't affected by the investigation. Should my workplace be helping me find alternate employment within the organisation or within their remit (e.g. a nearby establishment), if I feel I am unable to return to work in an environment which has caused me a lot of angst within the past year?

3. If I came to the conclusion that I should resign, should I consider asking my workplace for some type of conclusive compensation package first? What would me the most advisable thing to do? I am a civil servant as well. Would this make a difference to me and what options are available to me, should I decide to hand in my notice or otherwise?

4. In regards to holiday pay, if you are on long term sick, its my understanding you are still able to take leave and be paid for it? Are there any notable exceptions to this rule?

I am going to make a decision on my future this weekend, so we'll see what occurs.

Can they dismiss you? Yes they can. If they do so inappropriately then you can take action against them.

They could dismiss you on capability grounds. Meaning if the job stresses you, then they are unable to change the job and you are no longer able to carry out the duties and withstand the inherent pressures etc etc.

You have to understand not withstanding that you are sick they have a job that needs doing. If you are not there it is not getting done. They are paying you and that cannot continue indefinitely

In your circumstances it is not uncommon that people have some apprehension to return to the workplace after such a long lay off. Ultimately if it is work related stress then there is a fear the stress will return.

This likelihood is greatly increased the longer the absence. The longer the absence the greater the apprehension so to speak. If you speak to your GP expressing your concerns they will consider recommending a phased return or adaptive return. These are seen as beneficial to your health and aid your recovery as well as help ease you back into the workplace.

Most employers would agree to that as they would rather have an employee back at work in some form or other rather than paying you whilst off sick.

Your employer could also choose to dismiss you at a subsequent round of redundancies by making your job redundant. Sickness and absence can be a deciding factor in a matrix of selection. It is not uncommon for people in your position to hope for redundancies as that allows an exit strategy with some form of financial package.

Depending on the relationship you have with the company it is generally wiser to keep your rights in tact. In other words let them suggest and do something rather than you suggest it.

[rtbm]

Re: Long Term Sick Concerns

Thanks for the replies - if I return to work, I do not want to lose my holiday - basically, I have 31 days which I was unable to take due to illness - 4.5 days were carried over from the last leave year for the exact same reason. However, to take 31 days in the space of time between when I return and the end of April is unrealistic. Therefore, how would I explain this to the workplace as I don't want to lose this entitlement and would like to use at least some of it or if there isn't a chance to use it, then at least be able to use some of it this leave year and carry some of it over?

[krypton]

Re: Long Term Sick Concerns

Why don't you just ask them about your accrued holiday entitlement and how to best deal with it ?

Do you think it would be reasonable to come back to work after a long lay off and ask to have the first month off for your holidays?

[teaboy2]

Re: Long Term Sick Concerns

Thanks for the replies - if I return to work, I do not want to lose my holiday - basically, I have 31 days which I was unable to take due to illness - 4.5 days were carried over from the last leave year for the exact same reason. However, to take 31 days in the space of time between when I return and the end of April is unrealistic. Therefore, how would I explain this to the workplace as I don't want to lose this entitlement and would like to use at least some of it or if there isn't a chance to use it, then at least be able to use some of it this leave year and carry some of it over?

Generally the onus is on the employer to make sure their employees take their full holiday entitlement within the period. You could ask for payment in lieu or for the days to be added to next years. Either way, your entitled to take those days as holidays between now and the end of the entitlement period, so if you request them now, and they refuse, then they'd be in breach of contract regarding holiday entitlement! But best to point this out to them politely and discuss how best to resolve the matter.

[rtbm]

Re: Long Term Sick Concerns

Why don't you just ask them about your accrued holiday entitlement and how to best deal with it ?

Do you think it would be reasonable to come back to work after a long lay off and ask to have the first month off for your holidays?

No I think not, Krypton. I'd imagine that'd go down like a lead balloon, to be honest. I will need to ask. I mean, what I could say is, I could take a week off at the first and the last week of each month with the extra day thrown in for good measure or take a portion of my leave this year and then take the rest of it at a later time in the next leave year, since, in retrospect, I couldn't take it in the last leave year, or the one before that. The way I see it is that employees who were unable to take their accrued annual leave due to long term sick, must be able to take it upon their return. If an employee had the chance to take it but was unable to upon their return, they lose the entitlement, but what exactly does that mean? I mean, I could apply for leave and someone else already has leave that particular period, meaning I was unable to take it, so therefore, I didn't have the opportunity to take it, in effect, or are there different rules in place, due to special circumstances on my part? Also, since I was off for the best part of the year, I think they'd find it hard to argue they couldn't cope without me for, for argument's sake, for an additional week, etc., whilst the issues with the annual leave are sorted out.

[rtbm]

Re: Long Term Sick Concerns

Generally the onus is on the employer to make sure their employees take their full holiday entitlement within the period. You could ask for payment in lieu or for the days to be added to next years. Either way, your entitled to take those days as holidays between now and the end of the entitlement period, so if you request them now, and they refuse, then they'd be in breach of contract regarding holiday entitlement! But best to point this out to them politely and discuss how best to resolve the matter.

I don't really plan to take any holiday this year, to be honest, so I could, as you suggest, ask for payment in lieu of those days or to ask for them to be carried over - the thing is, due to my circumstances, for argument sake, if an employee in my section asked for a holiday period that clashed with a period I wanted to put holiday in for, what would happen then, since I was not in a position to take the holiday, in effect?

[krypton]

Re: Long Term Sick Concerns

No I think not, Krypton. I'd imagine that'd go down like a lead balloon, to be honest. I will need to ask

I think then you have answered your own question?

You can ask them how they propose to deal with your accrued holiday and let them make a suggestion. That maybe the more tactful approach.

[teaboy2]

Re: Long Term Sick Concerns

I don't really plan to take any holiday this year, to be honest, so I could, as you suggest, ask for payment in lieu of those days or to ask for them to be carried over - the thing is, due to my circumstances, for argument sake, if an employee in my section asked for a holiday period that clashed with a period I wanted to put holiday in for, what would happen then, since I was not in a position to take the holiday, in effect?

Well your still entitled to take your accrued holiday, so if it clashed with another party taking their holiday, well commonsense approach is usually employed, I.e. they let you take your remaining holidays during the next holiday period or offer you payment in lieu - if they do neither and as a result you loose your entitlement to take you accrued holidays, then they are in breach of contract! Our they could just let you both have your holidays you have put in for!

[rtbm]

Re: Long Term Sick Concerns

Well your still entitled to take your accrued holiday, so if it clashed with another party taking their holiday, well commonsense approach is usually employed, I.e. they let you take your remaining holidays during the next holiday period or offer you payment in lieu - if they do neither and as a result you loose your entitlement to take you accrued holidays, then they are in breach of contract! Our they could just let you both have your holidays you have put in for!

I shall keep this in mind. Thank you Teaboy and Krypton!

[rtbm]

Re: Long Term Sick Concerns

Just thought I'd give an update on my return to work and see what you good folk thought.

I attended a 'Return To Work' meeting on Monday 12 July at 2.30pm and afterward, I left. They said that they wanted me to return to work full time within one month and I questioned this, since I also asked my HR and they said I needed to return within three months and my union rep told me that none of the dates on the document produced should be set in stone. Also, the produced written information wasn't terribly professional either, in the way it was presented.

Since Tuesday 13 January, my time at work has been very trying - I can sense hostility from particular customers sometimes and especially from certain colleagues - I don't find I was truly welcomed back with open arms by the people who mattered, nor did it seem to me they were overly bothered about me returning, despite the work I've done for them these past eleven years, slaving away and getting very little in return for my efforts. Support has been very limited.

I was not impressed, since I had been away for the best part of a year, with the training back on the job, for refresher. It lasted no more than ten minutes and I was told basically that nothing had changed. That's all well and good but in the end, I would still need adequate training in order to catch up with things I might have forgotten etc., not be expected to chase people up and ask them the questions.

Also, my colleague's attitude, in some respects, has been poor. I feel there is no unity within the job, that you just go in, tolerate what you can from colleagues who don't seem to care and go home feeling miserable, knowing that you're going to be miserable for the next day as well. I told my line manager I was concerned about colleague attitudes and did say that maybe I was being too quick to judge, but at the same time, I did say that it was the way I perceive it as well and the impact it was having on my mental health as my physical health is already impaired by my current medical condition.

I also told my line manager that mistakes should be expected and it could be some time before I'm back on the straight and narrow, though I don't think this is appreciated by my other colleagues and I just think their demeanour is at times, just about bearable and that I am subject to a lot of unnecessary stress and criticism over trivial issues, which would not have a major impact on the everyday running of the business. Despite the fact my LM told me my doctor had deemed me fit for work, it almost felt like an attack and that should I not be able to keep my relationship with my colleagues harmonious, then there could be consequences, later on down the line, despite her assurances any issues would be ironed out.

Nevertheless, I've always known how to do the job, but its just the lack of support for my job from acquaintances and colleagues that is proving to raise my stress levels again and I feel that after 11 years, maybe now is a good time for a change. I plan to tell my work that I need a change, sooner rather than later, because its not doing my stress levels any good and if they don't oblige, I would be only too happy to hand in my notice as I just want to be free of this job now and focus on what could be a much brighter future and I am also fortunate that I have no financial obligations or any other worries where the loss of my job would be concerned, through my resignation. I have been told I could resign and use my remaining annual leave to cover the notice period, so that'd be beneficial to me as I wouldn't have to go back to work and be subjected to the daily issues which have a slow, but surely detrimental impact on my overall mental health, so there will be a happy ending, one way or the other.

Advice please?