Discretion with sick pay

[teaboy2]

Re: Discretion with sick pay

Right so S is sickness U is unauthorised absence, H is holidays, whats P (Or whats Passed Out)?

At moment i got you as having 15 Sick days (including one unauthroised absence, but not including sick days in november) which over 365 days is 4.11%

If include your recent Sick Period then its 27 days in total which is 7.4% of 365

All days off including holidays is 49 days which is 13.42% of 365 days.

however your only working 46 x 4 days shifts pattern per year, so thats a total of 184

SO - At moment i got you as having 15 Sick days (including one unauthroised absence, but not including sick days in november) which over 184 days is 8.15%

If include your recent Sick Period then its 27 days in total which is 14.67%

All days off including holidays is 49 days which is 26.63% of 184 days.

So looks like they are basis your absence ration on days you scheduled to work per year and have included your recent period of sick days for an industrial injury as standard absence as per highlighted in red above. But thats still not 16% though i not sure what the Passed out days are (P on the spreadsheet you provided) but id assume they'd take it to 16 percent.

Though even without your recent sick period, you still have a absence ratio of 8.15% - So can still be disciplined, though likely result would be a Verbal Warning on your file for 12 months.

So not lot can do unless they include your recent Industrial injury and try discipline you on capability grounds!

[PIKEO]

Re: Discretion with sick pay

The p is for pass out, if there is no work to be done then you can ask if it is possible to go home without any pay.

[teaboy2]

Re: Discretion with sick pay

Right ok.

Well not lot we can do until they start disciplinary procedures.

Though, did they inform you in writing as to why you were being disciplined and inviting you to an investigatory meeting - As it sounds from what you said earlier that they merely called you off the line and told you to attend a disciplinary meeting at the end of the same shift, and therefore gave you no notice in writing and skipped the investigatory meeting as well! Which is a breach of ACAS Code of Practice 1 - Disciplinary and Grievance Procedures. and would be unfair dismissal!

[PIKEO]

Re: Discretion with sick pay

Yeah they did inform me in writting

[PIKEO]

Re: Discretion with sick pay

Hi there Teaboy, hope your well, and before I continue, may I say a big thank you for your time and advice over the last few days, I greatly appreciate this and hope we can resolve this matter with my employer.
Today I had the meeting with my HR manager, just him and myself discussed the matter in more detail, I went as prepared as I possibly could with my letters, payslips of my absent time and with a few questions for him to ask.

1 Are you classing my absence as a Industrial injury, if not why?
His answer was no and that he will get back to me why when he has had chance to speak with the health and safety department.

2 It has been said that I was told to communicate with yourself (HR manager) if I was to be absent, I cannot remember this been said over the phone, and as I do not recall this been company protocol to inform you in this way, then how should I know this to be the correct action for me to have taken?

In reply, he said that he can remember saying this to me quite clear and that it is not normally the case to contact himself, but that when he text me the following “ Hi, apologies I haven’t text you sooner, I misplaced your number and have just found it! Your manager is not in tomorrow but I’ve left word with other managers to look after you tomorrow. Thanks.” Then that should have ringed bells implicating to let him know instead of following company protocol.
We both came to agreement that my misunderstanding was understandable as at the time we spoke, I was in a pain and with taking powerful painkillers may have contributed me to miss hearing or not remembering the instruction given, and that he should have said more detail in the text to make sure that we were on the same understanding.

3 You said the above that you have proof that this was communicated to me over the phone, is this person present?
He told me the name of his colleague who oversaw the conversation but he was not present and I did not ask for him to be.

4 I was told over the phone after I contacted yourselves that they had been changes in the way the HR department is acting now with absences ( this would not have influenced my ability to return to work), why was I not contacted about this?
His reply was that they did not need to inform me of the changes as had no effect to my contractile agreement.

5 I understand the reason you gave for stopping my Company Sick Pay is it says that it is discretionary and up to the employer, but in the next clause under Industrial injury there is no mention of discretion?
We never got to this question as he did agree at the time that my injury is industrial, so I will await his answer.

6 Statuary Sick Pay is a legal obligation and it is the company’s responsibility to ensure those who are entitled to it are paid, why was this not paid?

His reply was he did not know why this was and will get back to me with the answer as soon as possible.

7 If to be accused of that my previous injury to my wrist (fracture) is the main cause of my work injury at work, then how come I have never been absent of the injury until 16^th October 2014, as my fracture was 2 years and 10 months ago?
He said that due to the nature of my fracture that it could be contributing to my pain and discomfort, but I argued that I have never complained or been off until this injury at work, he said he would again ask the health and safety team and get back to me.

8 You stated you have taken the physio’s notes to be medically correct, instead of my NHS doctors notes, for me not to be deemed fit to return to work, why is this?

His reply was that the physio is highly trained in the occupation of the organisations duties and roles and that is able to see if there is alternative work for the individual abilities and offer more advice to rehabilitate and get back to work with support. I went on to add that when the physio and I had the meeting that we agreed that I was capable of returning but because of my wrist flaring up again that is was the reason I did not return. He had a hard time at taking my word for this as he said that due to my past absence with my back and other spells that it seems that I’m not too bothered about my sickness levels and that he will have to think about whether he going to take my word for it.

We left the meeting at this point with some answered and unanswered questions, I feel this could go either way and I will await his reply and post it here.

[teaboy2]

Re: Discretion with sick pay

Hi there Teaboy, hope your well, and before I continue, may I say a big thank you for your time and advice over the last few days, I greatly appreciate this and hope we can resolve this matter with my employer.
Today I had the meeting with my HR manager, just him and myself discussed the matter in more detail, I went as prepared as I possibly could with my letters, payslips of my absent time and with a few questions for him to ask.

1 Are you classing my absence as a Industrial injury, if not why?
His answer was no and that he will get back to me why when he has had chance to speak with the health and safety department.

2 It has been said that I was told to communicate with yourself (HR manager) if I was to be absent, I cannot remember this been said over the phone, and as I do not recall this been company protocol to inform you in this way, then how should I know this to be the correct action for me to have taken?

In reply, he said that he can remember saying this to me quite clear and that it is not normally the case to contact himself, but that when he text me the following “ Hi, apologies I haven’t text you sooner, I misplaced your number and have just found it! Your manager is not in tomorrow but I’ve left word with other managers to look after you tomorrow. Thanks.” Then that should have ringed bells implicating to let him know instead of following company protocol.
We both came to agreement that my misunderstanding was understandable as at the time we spoke, I was in a pain and with taking powerful painkillers may have contributed me to miss hearing or not remembering the instruction given, and that he should have said more detail in the text to make sure that we were on the same understanding.

3 You said the above that you have proof that this was communicated to me over the phone, is this person present?
He told me the name of his colleague who oversaw the conversation but he was not present and I did not ask for him to be.

4 I was told over the phone after I contacted yourselves that they had been changes in the way the HR department is acting now with absences ( this would not have influenced my ability to return to work), why was I not contacted about this?
His reply was that they did not need to inform me of the changes as had no effect to my contractile agreement.

Sorry but changes to policy is a change of your contractual terms and must be notified to you in writing for your agreement. It comes under sickness in your employment contract, so if your contract stated you had to report to the agency, and they then changed it unilaterally to reporting direct to HR without your agreement. Then their is sweet f all that they can do about you reporting to the agency as that is what your contractual obligation is!

5 I understand the reason you gave for stopping my Company Sick Pay is it says that it is discretionary and up to the employer, but in the next clause under Industrial injury there is no mention of discretion?
We never got to this question as he did agree at the time that my injury is industrial, so I will await his answer.

6 Statuary Sick Pay is a legal obligation and it is the company’s responsibility to ensure those who are entitled to it are paid, why was this not paid?

His reply was he did not know why this was and will get back to me with the answer as soon as possible.

7 If to be accused of that my previous injury to my wrist (fracture) is the main cause of my work injury at work, then how come I have never been absent of the injury until 16^th October 2014, as my fracture was 2 years and 10 months ago?
He said that due to the nature of my fracture that it could be contributing to my pain and discomfort, but I argued that I have never complained or been off until this injury at work, he said he would again ask the health and safety team and get back to me.

8 You stated you have taken the physio’s notes to be medically correct, instead of my NHS doctors notes, for me not to be deemed fit to return to work, why is this?

His reply was that the physio is highly trained in the occupation of the organisations duties and roles and that is able to see if there is alternative work for the individual abilities and offer more advice to rehabilitate and get back to work with support. I went on to add that when the physio and I had the meeting that we agreed that I was capable of returning but because of my wrist flaring up again that is was the reason I did not return. He had a hard time at taking my word for this as he said that due to my past absence with my back and other spells that it seems that I’m not too bothered about my sickness levels and that he will have to think about whether he going to take my word for it.

We left the meeting at this point with some answered and unanswered questions, I feel this could go either way and I will await his reply and post it here.

Actually i believe it is a good sign his responses, particularly about having to speak to HSE Department regarding nature of your injury etc and what he said about the physio would not stand up at an Employment tribunal, as a physio is neither a doctor or qualified in orthopedics. The physio has no power to say your fit for work in contradiction to what the doctor and/or consultant orthopedic that are treating you have said! Basically a physio can only determine what your can do physically what a physio can not do is determine the impact such physical activity would have on your injury or effect it would have on your previous fracture to your wrist both long term and short term (basically for all the physio knows, his advise could cost you the use of your wrist and hand in the long term). Which by the way is going to be effected by a repetitive strain injury due to the tendons attached to your wrist, add pressure by pulling on the area previously fractured or that has scarred tissue on from when you previously fractured it - But previous fracture is nothing to do with your repetitive strain injury as repetitive strain injuries are mainly related to tendons and muscle strain/tears or wearing of the joints and even nerve damage - Yes i had repetitive strain injury in my wrist as well!

Basically he was not prepared for your questions and has now gone from being authoritative and adamant about things, thinking he knew all. To today being stumped by your questions and having to go ask HSE department - So you have actually put him on the back foot by the sounds of it!

So the ball is now in his court, the fact they have not been paying you statutory sick pay instead of the company sick pay means they are in breach of contract and of the employment rights act 1996, and if they carrying down the route they were heading down previously they'd be in breach of a whole lot more employment laws and regulations. But for now, lets just wait and see what he comes up with from HSE department!

Have added a bit highlighted in red to what he said about not needing to notify you of changes to reporting sickness/absence. As frankly it is a change of your contractual term, no matter how much he likes to say it isn't. End of day your contractually obliged to follow company policy, therefore those policies are contractual terms and conditions.

[PIKEO]

Re: Discretion with sick pay

Good morning Teaboy, as of the meeting yesterday, we left with unanswered questions, just wondering how much time is a reasonable expectation for me to have answers, just was thinking of going to see him today, maybe 10am

[teaboy2]

Re: Discretion with sick pay

Good morning Teaboy, as of the meeting yesterday, we left with unanswered questions, just wondering how much time is a reasonable expectation for me to have answers, just was thinking of going to see him today, maybe 10am

give him a week, that way you have given him more than enough time.

[PIKEO]

Re: Discretion with sick pay

Okay, I will get back to him then