Employment Tribunal Orders - please help deadline 5 and 19 December!

[Hellothanks]

Hello, ET has made a number of Orders to myself as the Claimant and the Respondent. The first two Orders I need help with at the stage are:

1) Disclosure of documents - The parties are ordered to give mutual disclosure of documents relevant to the issues identified above by list and copy documents so as to arrive on or before 5 December. This includes from the claimant, documents relevant to all aspects of any remedy sought.

2) Bundle of documents - The claimant is ordered to notify the respondent on or before 19 December of the documents to be included in the bundle at her request.

I have seen one general adviser and one employment lawyer about this. With reference to Disclosure of documents, the general adviser advised that I should send both a 'list' and also 'copy' the documents to Respondent, excluding those the respondent will have anyway i.e. letters and emails from them. However, the employment lawyer advised that I am only required to send a 'list' of documents and DON'T need to 'copy' any documents as well (except for my evidences about my search efforts). Can anyone please help me out here as I am confused because based on what is requested above - '....by list and copy documents....' - I feel i am required to 'list' AND send 'copies' of documents, but don't really know what to do. What do people think??

With reference to the second Order - Bundle of documents - am I supposed to request the respondent to include all documents listed on my 'list' of 5 December and any other documents that are not in my possession but i know the respondent holds that I want to reply on as well?? If so, what if from the 'list' the respondent sends me I realise some of those documents are included in their 'list' anyway, do i still request them on 19 December?

Thank you for time and help.

[teaboy2]

Re: Employment Tribunal Orders - please help deadline 5 and 19 December!

Hello, ET has made a number of Orders to myself as the Claimant and the Respondent. The first two Orders I need help with at the stage are:

1) Disclosure of documents - The parties are ordered to give mutual disclosure of documents relevant to the issues identified above by list and copy documents so as to arrive on or before 5 December. This includes from the claimant, documents relevant to all aspects of any remedy sought.

2) Bundle of documents - The claimant is ordered to notify the respondent on or before 19 December of the documents to be included in the bundle at her request.

I have seen one general adviser and one employment lawyer about this. With reference to Disclosure of documents, the general adviser advised that I should send both a 'list' and also 'copy' the documents to Respondent, excluding those the respondent will have anyway i.e. letters and emails from them. However, the employment lawyer advised that I am only required to send a 'list' of documents and DON'T need to 'copy' any documents as well (except for my evidences about my search efforts). Can anyone please help me out here as I am confused because based on what is requested above - '....by list and copy documents....' - I feel i am required to 'list' AND send 'copies' of documents, but don't really know what to do. What do people think??

With reference to the second Order - Bundle of documents - am I supposed to request the respondent to include all documents listed on my 'list' of 5 December and any other documents that are not in my possession but i know the respondent holds that I want to reply on as well?? If so, what if from the 'list' the respondent sends me I realise some of those documents are included in their 'list' anyway, do i still request them on 19 December?

Thank you for time and help.

Between a general adviser and an employment lawyer - Who's advice would you usually follow in regards to employment law?!

In regards to second questions - Your to request all documents you would like included in the bundle that you intend to rely on!

If your unsure, then request everything that you "May" rely on at tribunal or contact the employment tribunal service for advice! Employment tribunals are well used to dealing with Litigants in person (person(s) not with legal representation), so expect you to make mistakes.

[Hellothanks]

Re: Employment Tribunal Orders - please help deadline 5 and 19 December!

Hello teaboy, thanks for reading and writing back. The employment lawyer, but it clearly says 'by list and copy documents...' I emailed the Advice Centre following the appointments. The general adviser, who happens to work for ET as well (can't remember under what role though) spoke to the session supervisor who happens to an employment solicitor, he initially said I am not required to send in copies of documents as well but upon seeing the exact wordings of the Order he said to do both i.e. send a list and also copies of documents. I have spoken to Tribunal as well, with my case Clerk, she said she didn't know but added I should do what is asked for.

So, in the limbo! because the advice from the employment lawyer contradicts what's written, as far as I can see. And then for the employment solicitor to change his words after seeing the wordings. That's why im feeling in unsure, it's NOT that i don't trust their advice.

[teaboy2]

Re: Employment Tribunal Orders - please help deadline 5 and 19 December!

Hello teaboy, thanks for reading and writing back. The employment lawyer, but it clearly says 'by list and copy documents...' I emailed the Advice Centre following the appointments. The general adviser, who happens to work for ET as well (can't remember under what role though) spoke to the session supervisor who happens to an employment solicitor, he initially said I am not required to send in copies of documents as well but upon seeing the exact wordings of the Order he said to do both i.e. send a list and also copies of documents. I have spoken to Tribunal as well, with my case Clerk, she said she didn't know but added I should do what is asked for.

So, in the limbo! because the advice from the employment lawyer contradicts what's written, as far as I can see. And then for the employment solicitor to change his words after seeing the wordings. That's why im feeling in unsure, it's NOT that i don't trust their advice.

Well if the employment solicitor changed his mind after seeing the exact wording, then i'd suggest you listen to what he said after he saw the exact wording then.

[Hellothanks]

Re: Employment Tribunal Orders - please help deadline 5 and 19 December!

The employment lawyer i saw also saw the exact wording but still said i am not required to copy documents. Anyways, will just send copies as well to be on the safe side.

Thank you

[teaboy2]

Re: Employment Tribunal Orders - please help deadline 5 and 19 December!

Right i think i know what the tribunal has ordered here.

Usually you send the other party a list of what documents you have, the other party can then request documents in that list that they do not have already or would like to see. I believe the order is ordering you to provide the list of what documents you have and copies of each document you have listed in the list. SO you need to send a list of all documents you have connected to your claim, and copies of them to the respondent or their representative!

It is a bit unusual for the tribunal to order you to provide a list and copies of documents on that list as it makes the need for the list irrelevant!

-----------EDIT-------------

You can find more details here as to the procedure regarding disclosure of documents here:

http://www.pureemploymentlaw.co.uk/2...and-whats-out/

[Hellothanks]

Re: Employment Tribunal Orders - please help deadline 5 and 19 December!

thank you teaboy. and thank you for the link. I have submitted copies and list and yes agreed makes the list irrelevant. I have received respondent's papers as well, they have copied an email i sent respondent via Acas. basically we were having email exchanges via Acas during early conciliation but respondent kept coming up with lies so in last email i got angry and once said the finance director declined to pay expenses due to me either due to his competence or being complacent in the discrimination, however they've blacked out bit where i said 'Still in the hope of resolving the matter amicably and as requested by the respondent here is what I am looking for....' Any idea why they blacked this out? Also, any idea what i can say if i get rebuked by the Judge at final hearing for speaking rudely about a senior member?? My only reason is that i was getting sick of their behaviour, i mean they were making me beg for my own money! Also, their solicitor has said I was 'dismissed due to redundancy or any other substantial reason', so may be they could try to defame my character! Lawyer I saw last said at Hearing they could turn round and give other reasons i.e. I have a bad worker, had behavioural problems etc and that's apparently why they add 'or any other substantial reason' which is really unfair I think, they cant be allowed to change reasons like that! It so unfair as law seem to have a lot of flexibility for employers!

Also, I sent copy of my contract to respondent solicitor when i was only asked to give 'terms and conditions of new employment'. I am feeling I shouldnt have given the whole contract for some reason. Do you reckon I have made a mistake, i mean could they use it to my disadvantage in any way?? I dont why I am regretting sending the complete contract!

On a different note, I was given civil legal advice number to call. what i found out was that if i was on jsa I could have qualified for legal aid!!! only started a a job since 10 Nov, wouldn't have tried this hard if i had known that before!! Or if i had known I could have contacted them just before 10 Nov! I am going to post a seperate link about this so may be some people might benefit.

[teaboy2]

Re: Employment Tribunal Orders - please help deadline 5 and 19 December!

Did you include copies of the same email in your documents along with letter stating reason for dismissal?

I would be certain a judge would be curious as to why they have blacked out parts of an email, as its as though they don't want the judge to see bits that does them no favors. I do not see how the visible content of the email actually defends them against discrimination, as you clearly refer to being discriminated and to a breach of section 13 under the employment act 1996 for non payment of expenses due to you!

Why did they want copies of your new employment contract? I assume that's with your new employer? Such details are not relevant to the claim or to the defense!

[Hellothanks]

Re: Employment Tribunal Orders - please help deadline 5 and 19 December!

Did you include copies of the same email in your documents along with letter stating reason for dismissal?

I would be certain a judge would be curious as to why they have blacked out parts of an email, as its as though they don't want the judge to see bits that does them no favors. I do not see how the visible content of the email actually defends them against discrimination, as you clearly refer to being discriminated and to a breach of section 13 under the employment act 1996 for non payment of expenses due to you!

Why did they want copies of your new employment contract? I assume that's with your new employer? Such details are not relevant to the claim or to the defense!

Thank you for pointing out the breach teaboy! In fact I just remembered i think I saw you made a reference to the Section in one of your other replies to someone else and I was meaning to send you a thank you note as it definitely applies to me, i think so anyway, they also withheld one day's pay! Got paid after i queried it during the Appeal, and they paid my expenses due during the Acas.

I actually left that email out from my disclosures because was advised that the ET would not be interested in what happened or who said what during the Acas early conciliation, but as soon as I saw they included it in their disclosures but with those bits blacked out, i emailed them my copy to be included in my disclosures with everything showing!! I have a strong feeling they could use my angry language in that email against me i.e. that I did not respect authority etc etc, which is not the case at all, but those people are what i call 'professional thugs' so hard to keep your head bowed down to them all the time!

Re: contract, in the Order it says 'terms of conditions of any new employment' so i assumed i needed to send copy of it and as yesterday was the deadline I just emailed the copy over to them as soon as I realised I forgot to add that in my disclosures. But that's me being impulsive! because I could have not sent and taken a little time to think or talk about it here, as ET have added a note that other documents as and when are found should be disclosed asap, so I guess that means I wouldn't have been seen to have breached the ET Order if say I submitted it next week instead of strictly by yesterday.