redundancy definition

[soapy1458]

Can you be made redundant when your job is still there to be done and any Tom Dick and Harry are covering it at different times in the day all week?
Husband is on a quarry weighbridge and was told the role is now redundant and he and other guy doing the job were to be included in consultation period . they were told that the role would be added to the folk in Sales & Distribution ie a female who is pregnant so will be finishing soon a, nd a male who has heart problems and doesn't take stress very well. They start at 7.30 , but lorries start at 6am, so other folk from the quarry are covering it then , and at the weekends . The Customer Service Manager is taking turns and the manager of the tar plant is covering it too.
My husband was put on 'gardening leave' almost a month ago , but would much rather be doing his job.
It looks like if those two can cover it as well as their sales jobs, then they must have been severely under-employed for a long time .
Nothing else has changed about the lorries- they still come in and out in the same volumes , and we hear that nothing is very organised now

[teaboy2]

Re: redundancy definition

Technically yes - As its the role that's being made redundant not the person or the duties that came with the role. The duties can be passed on to, or spread out between, other staff who also fill other roles within the company.

Though when making redundancies their are strict requirements placed upon the employer, that they most fulfill. And their most be legitimate business reasons for making redundancies. So what was the reason given for making the redundancies?

[soapy1458]

Re: redundancy definition

Technically yes - As its the role that's being made redundant not the person or the duties that came with the role. The duties can be passed on to, or spread out between, other staff who also fill other roles within the company.

Though when making redundancies their are strict requirements placed upon the employer, that they most fulfill. And their most be legitimate business reasons for making redundancies. So what was the reason given for making the redundancies?

They said it was the economic down turn but have taken on additional sales staff- and no one else is being made redundant and the same amount of lorries are going through the gates - they are even paying overtime to people from other departments to cover it - it makes no sense and just looks like they want rid- they even have an agency worker doing it !!

[teaboy2]

Re: redundancy definition

Economic downturn is a legitimate reason for redundancy - Bear in mind, just because it looks like everything is as normal and they are taking on more staff, it doesn't mean that they are making a profit. They could well be running at a loss, employing more sales people in to generate more sales and restructuring where by roles (where duties connected to them can be past to others) are being made redundant to lower the wage bill. Market Prices of Ore/Stone could well be down. so number of trucks still the same but thousands pounds less value or ore/stone on the trucks despite the tonnage being the same! Just because it appears they are doing well it doesn't mean they are.

Is there any particular reason why they might just want rid - I.e. has your husband had issues with his employer in recent past?

[soapy1458]

Re: redundancy definition

Well he follows the rules and doesn't take bribes although they hVe been offered in the past many times- he is one of those people who always suggest efficiency savings too - in fact they are bringing in an app to do some of the transport organising and no one in the organisation could work it out - they asked him and he did it and this is how they pay him back - does the fact that they have an agency worker in a weighbridge in one of their nearby quarries affect this - they has said they were giving his duties to people in distribution but they can't cope either and everyone else is doing it- those covering only do the job that my husband did - not involved in sales or distribution and they are all fed up and can't cope much longer either

[teaboy2]

Re: redundancy definition

I think from the sounds of things, and i know it sounds like the employer is being harsh and unfair (as it always does), that the company is acting with their rights. Unles you have any evidences to suggest otherwise. You should read up fully on the redundancy consultation and procedure from ACAS (http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=4256). If the company is not inline with whats set out by ACAS in regards to their redundacy procedure, then your Husband may well have a claim for unfair dismissal. But if the company is inline with the procedure, then from the info you have provided they seem to be acting fairly in the eyes of employment law.

As for agency worker - Its highly likely the agency worker is there on short term basis, and its highly likely to be cheaper than employing full time staff directly!

[soapy1458]

Re: redundancy definition

Thank you for the information you've provided - I have indeed read the ACAS info already and did phone them . Their advice was to put in the appeal if/when they make him redundant as we expect. The employer surely should be able to offer him employment if they have an agency worker covering another weighbridge - no-one was aware of that !! . He used to do transport and sales but they haven't considered him for the vacancy in sales where they say the role of weighbridge has been added , yet he knows it inside out with 30 years experience and often had to help them out with transport etc because of their errors

[teaboy2]

Re: redundancy definition

Thank you for the information you've provided - I have indeed read the ACAS info already and did phone them . Their advice was to put in the appeal if/when they make him redundant as we expect. The employer surely should be able to offer him employment if they have an agency worker covering another weighbridge - no-one was aware of that !! . He used to do transport and sales but they haven't considered him for the vacancy in sales where they say the role of weighbridge has been added , yet he knows it inside out with 30 years experience and often had to help them out with transport etc because of their errors

I see what your saying, but its not as clear cut as that - The employer only has to offer suitable alternative employment if such a suitable alternative position is available. Whether another positions available in the company is deemed as suitable alternative employment depends on the following:

• how similar the work is to your current job
• the terms of the job being offered
• your skills, abilities and circumstances in relation to the job
• the pay (including benefits), status, hours and location

As you probably know, there is a big difference between sales work and operating a weight bridge. So just because there is vacancies in the company, it does not mean those positions are suitable alternative positions that could be offered to those facing redundancy.

However there is no harm in your husband having an informal chat with the employer an expressing his interest in the sales role. But if your husband has no sales experience then its not really a suitable alternative position - even though the employer would benefit from his knowledge of operating the weight bridge.

But then theres also the fact he'd have to be trained up in sales, and sales procedure, where as a new person coming in to the job with sales experience would not need that training.

Again as to the agency worker - We do not know the circumstances as to his employment. If hes been their over 12 weeks, then hes entitled to the same protections as any other employee, and can not simply be dismissed in favor of giving the position to your husband. The agency worker could only be their on a fixed term contract, and the company may be looking at making that position redundant as well, once the agency workers contract has ran its course. Its ifs and buts, like i said earlier.

[soapy1458]

Re: redundancy definition

Granted both roles are different but since my husband has experience of and used to do their role , its unfair - in fact they have to be trained on weighbridge - he used to be undermanager on a coal site and did weighbridge, sales & transport , where this quarry is bigger so roles are broken down instead of him doing it all - in fact transport was only removed from him around 8 months ago

[teaboy2]

Re: redundancy definition

Granted both roles are different but since my husband has experience of and used to do their role , its unfair - in fact they have to be trained on weighbridge - he used to be undermanager on a coal site and did weighbridge, sales & transport , where this quarry is bigger so roles are broken down instead of him doing it all - in fact transport was only removed from him around 8 months ago

How is it unfair? Its not according to employment law! The two roles are different (as you agree) regardless of any experience your husband has in sales.

Was sales ever his primary role or just helping out if needed?

Like i said, he should speak to his employer about his interest in the sales role, as that's only way stands a chance of getting that position. Because at end of the day the sales role is not a suitable alternative to his current role, what is contained in the 4 bullet points i posted in my above post.

[soapy1458]

Re: redundancy definition

Sales used to be part of his job as was organising transport as I have already stated- he didn't just help out - before that he was under manager on a coal site and actually did the transport ordering for 3 sites and kept/maintained records for Coal Board re mineral extractions- can't understand why the sales/distribution ( who organise transport) isn't suitable if he did it for 15 years before joining them and was keeping his hand in with current company- infact he kept them right on it too- he clearly does have skills and experience of that role . He has in fact been interviewed for Transport Manager so I hope he gets the job

[teaboy2]

Re: redundancy definition

Sales used to be part of his job as was organising transport as I have already stated- he didn't just help out - before that he was under manager on a coal site and actually did the transport ordering for 3 sites and kept/maintained records for Coal Board re mineral extractions- can't understand why the sales/distribution ( who organise transport) isn't suitable if he did it for 15 years before joining them and was keeping his hand in with current company- infact he kept them right on it too- he clearly does have skills and experience of that role . He has in fact been interviewed for Transport Manager so I hope he gets the job

Well i have no experience in where your husband works, but in most companies there is a big difference between organizing transport (logistics) and Sales. They are usually two different departments.

As for Transport Ordering whilst at coal site, that again is logistics, not sales.

In my experience. Sales and distribution is where you sell products/services and deliver them to the end user/costumer. Usually as far as a sales operative is concerned their own input towards ensuring delivery is processing the order, i.e. producing sales invoice and associated shipping and dispatch notes. It is then transferred to dispatch/warehouse etc, for them to pick the order (from the information included in the dispatch/note), pack the order or load the order and put the associated shipping note on the order. The logistics people are the ones that ensure the delivery vehicles (couriers/lorries) are booked and arrive to pick up "AN" or "Multiple customers" order(s) to transport to end user/customer. That's how it usually works in a sales/distribution environment.

If it works differently at your Husbands workplace, then please advise me as to how, by giving details of the procedures they employ from sales through to dispatch and logistics.


Now more importantly - Your saying hes now had an interview for transport manager? Was he invited to apply or applied of his own initative? I'm assuming this is for same company? If is for same company, why did you not mention this before?

[soapy1458]

Re: redundancy definition

Well i have no experience in where your husband works, but in most companies there is a big difference between organizing transport (logistics) and Sales. They are usually two different departments.

As for Transport Ordering whilst at coal site, that again is logistics, not sales.

In my experience. Sales and distribution is where you sell products/services and deliver them to the end user/costumer. Usually as far as a sales operative is concerned their own input towards ensuring delivery is processing the order, i.e. producing sales invoice and associated shipping and dispatch notes. It is then transferred to dispatch/warehouse etc, for them to pick the order (from the information included in the dispatch/note), pack the order or load the order and put the associated shipping note on the order. The logistics people are the ones that ensure the delivery vehicles (couriers/lorries) are booked and arrive to pick up "AN" or "Multiple customers" order(s) to transport to end user/customer. That's how it usually works in a sales/distribution environment.

If it works differently at your Husbands workplace, then please advise me as to how, by giving details of the procedures they employ from sales through to dispatch and logistics.


Now more importantly - Your saying hes now had an interview for transport manager? Was he invited to apply or applied of his own initative? I'm assuming this is for same company? If is for same company, why did you not mention this before?

They had given him a list of vacancies nationally - it included the transport managers job which he had been thinking about - he had been working with a guy from head office to get this new transport app working and the guy had said to him to apply for it because his knowledge was excellent - he was told that he could apply for it if he wanted but would need to prepare CV and complete an application- his union rep asked if they could use the skills/ employment resume I had prepared for the meeting since it was written like a CV with examples etc - to which the HR person agreed- he got a phone call the next week for an interview - this is out with the redundancy process as far as we are aware - he hasn't been told otherwise - having said that the head of logistics interviewed him - he came up from Leicester along the the person who would be his immediate manager- oh btw the sales/distribution cope with sales and organise transport - sales was always an add on to the quarry job but he had to do it between 6.00am and 8.00am when the office staff aren't there and cope with some really nasty people

[teaboy2]

Re: redundancy definition

They had given him a list of vacancies nationally - it included the transport managers job which he had been thinking about - he had been working with a guy from head office to get this new transport app working and the guy had said to him to apply for it because his knowledge was excellent - he was told that he could apply for it if he wanted but would need to prepare CV and complete an application- his union rep asked if they could use the skills/ employment resume I had prepared for the meeting since it was written like a CV with examples etc - to which the HR person agreed- he got a phone call the next week for an interview - this is out with the redundancy process as far as we are aware - he hasn't been told otherwise - having said that the head of logistics interviewed him - he came up from Leicester along the the person who would be his immediate manager- oh btw the sales/distribution cope with sales and organise transport - sales was always an add on to the quarry job but he had to do it between 6.00am and 8.00am when the office staff aren't there and cope with some really nasty people

Right, so basically they have already offered him alternative employment by giving him a list of available positions for him to look at and choose from.

When you say "this is out with the redundancy process as far as we are aware" do you mean outside of the redundancy process, because its not. If he gets the new position, then despite his current position being made redundant, he will still be employed and his employment will still be continuous. So even though he won't get any redundancy pay if he gets the new position. He will still be entitled to 1 weeks wage per year hes been in continuous employment with this company, should his new role be made redundant.

By giving him list of vacancies the company is saying, look sorry we have to make your current role redundant but here's a list of vacancies pick which one you want, apply for it.

I know this isn't easy for you and i do not mean to sound or come across as harsh, as i am trying to help, but my help is based on employment law backed by regulations and legislation, no matter if its seems fair or seems unfair. So please do not withhold facts surrounding the issue, as i and others here can only advise on the facts you give us, and its vital people tell us the full facts so we can make sure they get the advice required. Missing out just one fact, that may seem irrelevant, could change the whole outcome. As one single mistake/act, no matter how irrelevant it sounds, on either the employers apart (usually) or employee part could change everything. So please make sure you provide all the facts surrounding the issue, such as everything that has been said and done etc.

In fact, just so we are all clear here, i think it might be best you write up a brief out line of events starting from the date your husbane initially was told about possible redundancy. Keep it brief and to the facts. So no going on about other employees, whats happening with the duties your husbands role included, agency staff. Keep it to just about your husband, his role, and the process and acts the employer has followed/done as part of the redundancy process, including the giving of list of vacancies. Ok?

As for the sales and distribution duties, it sounds like that was just a covering role, till the sales people started work in the morning. And yes you do have to deal with some nasty, abusive and arrogant people in sales. Funny thing is they think the law is always on their side and forget that the law also protects the person they are being abusive or nasty too. Some have learn that the hard way via myself!

Does your husband know your here asking for advice? Because i think it may be best you have him sit next to you when you write up the list of events i mentioned above.