I have a meeting on Monday to discuse a compromise agreement

[Tommy boy]

Can I ask please...I have a meeting on Monday to discuse a compromise agreement as the company is trying to manage me out the business...I am very concerned if any advice could be given...I would be very grateful....When negotiating enhanced redundancy payments as a person who is over 60 years of age ( in other words facing a bigger challenge to find an equivalent role); what would be realistic target? .....Are there guidelines?......I have enjoyed a role as a Sales Executive which is probably a middle management position in close contact with major to medium customer accounts....I will find it difficult to find a role that is commensurate with my current role Recent statistics show that the 60-65 age bracket has seen the lowest percentage rise in new appointments....I have been a good employee and worked very hard for the company...bringing in business as I was employed to do over the last 8 years...I just want a fair agreement as I am very worried about this ...regards Tom

[MissFM]

Re: I have a meeting on Monday to discuse a compromise agreement

Hello Tommy boy

Worry no more because help is at hand - someone knowledgeable will be along soon.

Meanwhile - put your feet up and award yourself a cuppa - you've come to the right place xx

[Tommy boy]

Re: I have a meeting on Monday to discuse a compromise agreement

Thank you for your reply.....I can't help but worry about the meeting tomorrow as this situation is so unfair....I am in sales and have worked for 8 years at the company being able to work proactively sending quotes and working to my ability as part of the sales team. One year ago I got a written warning for not sending a quote to a customer on time this warning has now been removed but I have just had a warning for gross misconduct for sending a example quote to a customer as we did not have full spec on the product so accurate costing at the time could not be given...but not wanting a repeat of the year before and the chance the deal could still be done I sent the quote...till the last few months I have been able to send quotes and use my years of experience and ability to do my job and not be question on how I deal with customers. We now have a new manager and he wants to be told everything before any contact with the customers. I don't feel sending a example quote reason for a gross misconduct warning and very possible I will lose my job because they are trying to offer me a compromise or except that sending a quote is gross misconduct and will go on my record and give me tasks to prove myself to keep my job... I am 60 years of age and have a meeting tomorrow with the company to discuss the compromise ...I feel they just want me out the business and could make my life very hard if I stayed...I just need some advice on what would be realistic target? .....Are there guidelines?....I have enjoyed a role as a Sales Executive which is probably a middle management position in close contact with major to medium customer accounts....and on a good salary....and have been a good employee with very little time off in 8 years... Any help would be gratefully received . Regards Tom

[Johnboy007]

Re: I have a meeting on Monday to discuse a compromise agreement

Hi,

The statutory redundancy payment for someone 60years plus is calculated for each complete year of service at 1.5 x a weeks pay.

This will give you some idea of the minimum that you should start your negotiations
So if you earned say Ł300.00 a week
Ł300.00 X 1.5 = Ł450.00
Then times this by however many years you have worked for the company.
The maximum pay per week is currently capped at Ł380.00

Employers must ensure that any redundancy policies don't directly or indirectly discriminate against older workers.

There is no upper or lower age limit on the entitlement of statutory redundancy pay.


Your employer must pay you the statutory minimum redundancy payment even if you're over 60, or after your normal retirement age if this is lower.


Employees aged 60 and over who are made redundant are entitled to:

• 1.5 weeks’ pay (currently capped at Ł380 per week) for each year of service in which you were aged 41 or over
• One week’s pay for each year you were under 41
• Half a week’s pay for each year you were under 22
• Up to a maximum of 20 years service
  

Try and get all your figures worked out before you go to your meeting, and you will have some idea as to what to negotiate with your employer.

[Johnboy007]

Re: I have a meeting on Monday to discuse a compromise agreement

Thank you for your reply.....I can't help but worry about the meeting tomorrow as this situation is so unfair....I am in sales and have worked for 8 years at the company being able to work proactively sending quotes and working to my ability as part of the sales team. One year ago I got a written warning for not sending a quote to a customer on time this warning has now been removed but I have just had a warning for gross misconduct for sending a example quote to a customer as we did not have full spec on the product so accurate costing at the time could not be given...but not wanting a repeat of the year before and the chance the deal could still be done I sent the quote...till the last few months I have been able to send quotes and use my years of experience and ability to do my job and not be question on how I deal with customers. We now have a new manager and he wants to be told everything before any contact with the customers. I don't feel sending a example quote reason for a gross misconduct warning and very possible I will lose my job because they are trying to offer me a compromise or except that sending a quote is gross misconduct and will go on my record and give me tasks to prove myself to keep my job... I am 60 years of age and have a meeting tomorrow with the company to discuss the compromise ...I feel they just want me out the business and could make my life very hard if I stayed...I just need some advice on what would be realistic target? .....Are there guidelines?....I have enjoyed a role as a Sales Executive which is probably a middle management position in close contact with major to medium customer accounts....and on a good salary....and have been a good employee with very little time off in 8 years... Any help would be gratefully received . Regards Tom

Hi Tom,
I believe I have already answered you, with regards to the offence being classed as 'gross misconduct'.
I am pretty sure a Tribunal would throw that one out.
It was after all, a sample quote, and the company have not suffered any loss.

Don't forget, the redundancy payment is capped at Ł380.00 per week for every year of employment.
So Ł380.00 X 1.5 = Ł570.00 X 8 = Ł4560.00
This is the maximum you could get.
You may not receive as much as this, depending on your wages, and how generous your employer is.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: I have a meeting on Monday to discuse a compromise agreement

Don't forget, the redundancy payment is capped at Ł380.00 per week for every year of employment.
So Ł380.00 X 1.5 = Ł570.00 X 8 = Ł4560.00
This is the maximum you could get.
You may not receive as much as this, depending on your wages, and how generous your employer is.

That must have been a while ago, it's a bit more than that nowadays: http://www.statutory-redundancy.co.u...-6-april-2014/

From 6^th April 2014 the gross weekly cap used for calculating redundancy pay has increased from Ł450 to Ł464.

[Wombats]

Re: I have a meeting on Monday to discuse a compromise agreement

I know it's getting late in the evening, but my knowledge of sales executives is sufficient to know the salary is made up of three components - basic, commission, bonus. Is there anything in the regs which states average pay, basic pay, or whatever? This could make a huge difference if people I know are anything to go by.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: I have a meeting on Monday to discuse a compromise agreement

One thing about redundancy is that it's the POST rather than the individual that becomes redundant. That means making someone redundant and then hiring someone else to replace them is a no-no. :nono: However, companies often get around this by arguing that "the role has changed". :rant: :rant:

Some Big Bad 'F' in$titution$ I know were giving payouts considerably larger than statutory redundancy pay :wof: because they were making permanent employees redundant and giving their jobs to agency 'temps', some of which were 'temping' at the same place for over 10 years! :mmph:

With regards to commissions and bonuses, I believe they are taken into account as stated here: http://www.redundancyexpert.co.uk/ov...dancy-pay.html

If you work in a role where you receive regular commission and bonuses these will be taken into account and your employer should calculate your redundancy pay using the average wage of the last 12 weeks.
For example, for many people who work in advertising and sales they will often earn more in commission than they will receive in their normal basic wage. In this instance your employer should use the 12-week rule as your job means you don’t have a normal week’s wage.

It should be noted that this site is not bang up-to-date with regards to the weekly cap. :ohwell:

[Amethyst]

Re: I have a meeting on Monday to discuse a compromise agreement

I'd always stick with ACAS http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=1611

[Johnboy007]

Re: I have a meeting on Monday to discuse a compromise agreement

I know it's getting late in the evening, but my knowledge of sales executives is sufficient to know the salary is made up of three components - basic, commission, bonus. Is there anything in the regs which states average pay, basic pay, or whatever? This could make a huge difference if people I know are anything to go by.

Good news is that the redundancy capping has been increased.
Pay is capped at Ł464 per week. Length of service is capped at 20 years.
The maximum amount of statutory redundancy pay is Ł13,920

The following is a bit long winded, but it has come from the .gov.uk web site

If your pay varies or you’re not paid weekly, you have to use a 12-week period for working it out.
The 12-week period
This is where you work out your weekly pay by getting an average figure for a 12-week period. The period of time you use varies if you’re calculating your pay for a specific reason.
Redundancy
To work out your pay during time off for job-hunting if you’re being made redundant, use the 12-week period leading up to the day you got your redundancy notice.
Notice pay
If you want to know what your notice pay should be, use the 12-weeks leading up to the first day of the notice period.
Paid annual leave
Work this out using the 12 weeks leading up to your holiday.
Guarantee payments
Use the 12 weeks leading up to when your payment is due. If you no longer work for that employer, use the last 12 weeks of your employment with them.
If you’ve worked for your employer for less than 12 weeks, you should be allowed to calculate your average weekly pay using:

• the number of hours you would have worked
• the hours of other workers doing a similar job for your employer

Working out your weekly figure
Add up the total amount of pay for the period and divide it by 12 to get the weekly figure. You do this even if you’ve had to use a period of more than 12 weeks.
Bonuses can also be included - read the information on how to work out your pay with bonuses for help.
Overtime
If your contract says your employer has to pay you overtime, this can be included in your calculations.
Work done for a previous employer
You can include pay for work done for a previous employer if you’re calculating your average weekly pay and you didn’t have a gap in employment when you changed jobs.
If you don’t have normal working hours
If you do shift or rota work, working out your weekly pay can be more complicated - read the advice on calculations if you work shifts.
If you need help
If you’re having trouble calculating a week’s pay, contact Acas (Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service) or Citizens Advice.
3. Pay calculations if you work shifts or get bonuses

If your pay or working hours vary from week to week, the calculations for working out your weekly pay are more complicated.
If your pay varies

Pay can vary depending on the amount of work you do, because of:

• bonuses
• commission
• ‘piece-work’ - where you’re paid by the amount of work you do, rather than by the hour

If this is the case, to work out your weekly pay you need to work out your average hourly rate over a 12-week period.
To do this, work out your total pay for the 12 weeks first. You can include overtime and bonuses. There are special calculations for bonuses.
Quarterly bonuses

If you get a quarterly bonus you can include a proportion of it in your calculations. Here’s what to do:

1. Divide the amount by 13 (the number of weeks in a quarter of a year).
2. Multiply this figure by 12 (the number of weeks your pay is averaged across).

Example:
If you get a quarterly bonus of Ł260:

• divide Ł260 by 13 weeks = Ł20
• multiply Ł20 by 12 weeks = Ł240

You can include a bonus of Ł240 as part of your 12-week total.
Annual bonuses

If you get an annual bonus here’s what you need to do.

1. Divide the amount by 52 (the number of weeks in a year).
2. Multiply this by 12.

Example:
If you get an annual bonus of Ł5,200:

• divide Ł5,200 by 52 weeks = Ł100 per week
• multiply Ł100 by 12 weeks = Ł1,200

You can include a bonus of Ł1,200 as part of your 12-week total.
Once you’ve worked out your total pay for the 12-week period, work out the average hourly rate by dividing the total by the number of hours you worked in the 12-week period.
To work out your weekly wage, multiply your hourly rate by the average number of hours you worked each week in the 12-week period.
If you do shift or rota work

Your week’s pay will be the average number of hours you work at an average pay rate over a 12-week period.
Example:
Your pay is Ł6 per hour and you work 3, 9-hour shifts, then you have 3 days off.
On weekends you’re paid Ł9 per hour. At the start of the 12-week period, your first day at work is a Monday. Here’s how you work out your pay.

1. Work out how many hours you did over the 12-week period (42 x 9-hour shifts = 378 hours).
2. Divide this by 12 to work out your average weekly hours: 378 divided by 12 = 31.5 hours.
3. Calculate your pay for the weekday shifts. You’d have worked 30 weekday 9-hour shifts at Ł6 per hour. 30 shifts x 9 hours = 270 hours. Multiply this by Ł6 to get the total you were paid for your weekday shifts: Ł1,620.
4. Divide Ł1620 by 12 to get the weekly figure: Ł135.
5. Calculate your pay for weekends. You’d have worked 12 weekend 9-hour shifts at Ł9 per hour. 12 shifts x 9 hours = 108 hours. Multiply this by Ł9 to get the weekend total: Ł972
6. Divide this by 12 to get the weekly figure: Ł81 per week.
7. Add the weekday and weekend figures together: Ł135 + Ł81 = Ł216. This is your weekly rate.

Hope this helps

[Debt Camel]

Re: I have a meeting on Monday to discuse a compromise agreement

Statutory redundancy isn't really of much relevance here, surely? This is not a redundancy process.

The employer is clearly trying to manage Tommy Boy out. As JohnBoy says, that gross misconduct allegation doesn't sound as though it would stand up in court. The compromise agreement can offer any amount and also other things such as an agreed reference and the removal of the gross misconduct allegation from the personel file which may be important here.

Do you feel you are being picked on? Is the new manager making other salesmen go through similar processes or are you being singled out? If you are, could this be because you are an older and long standing member of the team and hence you get paid more? If this is the case then there may be a potential here for an age discrimination claim. I would suggest that you may wish to mention that in the meeting this morning - don't over-egg it, just say that you have been informed that this may be possible.

This meeting is not final. Even if you agree to something in it, it can later be changed, indeed you will have to get legal advice before you sign a compromise agreement (your employer will pay for this). In your situation I would be mainly wanting to listen to what your employer is proposing.

[Johnboy007]

Re: I have a meeting on Monday to discuse a compromise agreement

The question asked by the OP was..
"When negotiating enhanced redundancy payments as a person who is over 60 years of age ( in other words facing a bigger challenge to find an equivalent role); what would be realistic target"?
I think the above will cover this............

[davec1960]

Re: I have a meeting on Monday to discuse a compromise agreement

Hi Tommy Boy

The advice on what statuatory redundancy will give you give you the lowest figure you could walk away with.
However if your company is talking about a compromise agreement (now called settlement agreements) then they will be asking you to sign away your rights to take them to a tribunal.
This clearly has a value to them.
My strategy in your position would be to ask them what they are offering for you to walk away rather than you tell them a figure that you want.
This figure is their opening bid and they will not expect to get away with that offer.
How much you end up with will be down to your negotiating skills and how desparate they are to get rid of you.
Your service gives you the equivalent of 22 weeks salary, of which 12 would be tax free so anything less than 6 months salary is selling yourself short. 12 months would probably be a good win and should be the lowest counterbid you offer to their opener.

Couple of points to consider

Is the new manager new to the company? If so then the company will probably be keen to support him and hence accept a higher payoff figure.
You have to take legal advice for the agreement to be valid, the company would normally pay for this
Your manager seems to have confused disciplinary and capability matters with his threat of a warning for gross misconduct and the need to prove yourself.
Be clear about what is being offered with regards to taxation. Redundancy pay isn't taxable, notice and holiday pay are, although PILON can also be tax free if the company chooses to pay it that way. All of a settlement payment may end being taxed if not structured as a redundancy payment.

Good luck

[Johnboy007]

Re: I have a meeting on Monday to discuse a compromise agreement

A company will always back management, but may not do so in private.
Looking at Tommy's posts, I think he may struggle in negotiations.
He said...
I can't help but worry about the meeting tomorrow as this situation is so unfair.
It is likely that management may pick up on this uncertainty, and play on it to their advantage.
I spent quite a few years negotiating with senior management and directors, and it is an acquired skill.
For less experienced people, it can be very daunting and scary.
I hope not in Tommy's case, and I hope he gets what he wants.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: I have a meeting on Monday to discuse a compromise agreement

Settlements including an agreed reference are often offered by companies even when the employee's case is weak. Many moons ago I got one of them myself even when I'd been given only a 20% chance of success @ the ET. Someone I know also got one when he argued constructive dismissal which has a very low ET success rate. A few others have got them more recently. They are often referred to as commercial settlements without admission of liability because it's cheaper and easier for companies to settle rather than fight. Costs against the claimant are rarely awarded by the ET so companies may face a hefty bill even if they win. :grin: