Disciplinary for absence (even though I was blind)

[CorraGeezer]

Ok so hello. I just joined here for a little bit of advise on a matter.

At my work we have a fair few people taking the piss. And they implemented a rule that if you are off three times in a year, you get a verbal warning.

So last august I was off one day. Then in April, I felt badly but still came into work as I know how keen they are. I was sick and they sent me home and had another couple of days off being ill.

Last week, I had keratitis which is an infection in the cornea and was off Mon- Thurs. I couldn't see and was sat indoors with two pairs of sunglasses on and the blinds drawn. I was at the eye casualty 4 times out of 6 days as they had to keep checking on it because it was so aggressive. Drops had to be administered every hour, even through the night so I couldn't sleep for 4 days, just getting half an hour here and there. The doctor gave me a note and said that I would be a danger to myself and others due to the fact that I couldn't see properly. Any light shone in my eye caused agony, I couldn't focus properly and I couldn't keep my eye open for longer than a couple of seconds without reeling away and blinking like mad for ages.


So now they have decided that I should be given a written warning. If it was just a normal illness that I couldn't prove, I would say fair enough. But we have a very, very strict H&S policy at work and if you injure yourself, you get a warning!!!

I'm not sure what I should have done as I operate machinery and there are plenty of nipping points and extremely hot steel drums (180 degrees hot) that I could have easily injured myself on or caused others to become injured. Can they really get away with giving me a warning for not coming in and being a danger to myself and others? Is there any way that I could prove that coming into work would have been hazardous?


I'm not holding out much hope. There is a guy at our place who is having to use holidays just to cover the days off after his operation on his shoulder. They do take the piss. I know they don't have to pay sick pay as I know some places that don't. And I was self employed before so if I was ill then I didn't get paid. But I'm just hoping for some kind of loophole I can exploit to show them that it was in the best interest of me and my co-workers to stay away.


I hope anyone can help me on this.

[Johnboy007]

Re: Disciplinary for absence (even though I was blind)

Hi,

General duties of employers to their employees.

(1)It shall be the duty of every employer to ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, the health, safety and welfare at work of all his employees.

(2)Without prejudice to the generality of an employer’s duty under the preceding subsection, the matters to which that duty extends include in particular—

(a)the provision and maintenance of plant and systems of work that are, so far as is reasonably practicable, safe and without risks to health;

(b)arrangements for ensuring, so far as is reasonably practicable, safety and absence of risks to health in connection with the use, handling, storage and transport of articles and substances;

(c)the provision of such information, instruction, training and supervision as is necessary to ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, the health and safety at work of his employees;

(d)so far as is reasonably practicable as regards any place of work under the employer’s control, the maintenance of it in a condition that is safe and without risks to health and the provision and maintenance of means of access to and egress from it that are safe and without such risks;

(e)the provision and maintenance of a working environment for his employees that is, so far as is reasonably practicable, safe, without risks to health, and adequate as regards facilities and arrangements for their welfare at work.

(3)Except in such cases as may be prescribed, it shall be the duty of every employer to prepare and as often as may be appropriate revise a written statement of his general policy with respect to the health and safety at work of his employees and the organisation and arrangements for the time being in force for carrying out that policy, and to bring the statement and any revision of it to the notice of all of his employees.

(4)Regulations made by the Secretary of State may provide for the appointment in prescribed cases by recognised trade unions (within the meaning of the regulations) of safety representatives from amongst the employees, and those representatives shall represent the employees in consultations with the employers under subsection (6) below and shall have such other functions as may be prescribed.

F1(5). . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

(6)It shall be the duty of every employer to consult any such representatives with a view to the making and maintenance of arrangements which will enable him and his employees to co-operate effectively in promoting and developing measures to ensure the health and safety at work of the employees, and in checking the effectiveness of such measures.

(7)In such cases as may be prescribed it shall be the duty of every employer, if requested to do so by the safety representatives mentioned in [F2subsection (4)] above, to establish, in accordance with regulations made by the Secretary of State, a safety committee having the function of keeping under review the measures taken to ensure the health and safety at work of his employees and such other functions as may be prescribed.

First things first,
Sickness is not a disciplinary procedure.
Certainly not for taking three days off a year......
You say you have a fair few people taking the piss, can you add your Employer to that list........
The employer has a duty of care in legislation, to all of it's employees.
One of those duties is to ensure, where reasonably practicable, that the workplace is a safe environment.
The first thing you need to do is ask your employer for copies of their 'Disciplinary, Appeals and Grievance' procedures.
Or if these are in the company handbook, ask to see them.
It is your right.
A couple of questions first..
Do you have a contract of employment.
How long have you been working for your employer?
Once I know this, I will be in a better position to advise you.
aw:

[CorraGeezer]

Re: Disciplinary for absence (even though I was blind)

Thank you for such an informative reply.

I have had a disciplinary and had a verbal warning. I am going to appeal this and the union have stepped in. If I'm honest, the union member wasn't great who came in with me and didn't have much input about it. He argued the point about safety and then meekly quietened down. I have other members on the case for the appeal though so will show them this stuff.

I have had a full time contract for 13 months and was on a rolling temp contract for 8 months prior to that. It wasn't three days off, it was three separate occasions over 12 months for a total of 9 days.

The guy on the disciplinary panel said that I should have made my way to work and then let them decide if I was fit to work. He also said that could have worked away from my station doing some checking and testing (bearing mind I was practically blind) which I laughed at due to the nature of the illness.

[Johnboy007]

Re: Disciplinary for absence (even though I was blind)

Thank you for such an informative reply.

I have had a disciplinary and had a verbal warning. I am going to appeal this and the union have stepped in. If I'm honest, the union member wasn't great who came in with me and didn't have much input about it. He argued the point about safety and then meekly quietened down. I have other members on the case for the appeal though so will show them this stuff.

I have had a full time contract for 13 months and was on a rolling temp contract for 8 months prior to that. It wasn't three days off, it was three separate occasions over 12 months for a total of 9 days.

The guy on the disciplinary panel said that I should have made my way to work and then let them decide if I was fit to work. He also said that could have worked away from my station doing some checking and testing (bearing mind I was practically blind) which I laughed at due to the nature of the illness.

At your appeal, ask this simple question........
Could (name of your company) please inform me, and give me copies, of all and any specific medical qualifications, (name of man at disciplinary hearing) has, that enables him to determine at any time, my medical condition and my state of health?
It's bloody odds on, that he hasn't even got a first aid kit.
Also ask this question.
If I am feeling unwell and Mr (name of man at disciplinary hearing) has ruled that I am fit to work, and insists that I work.
Does (name of company) accept full liability, and any cosequencies for any misdiagnosis made by (name of man at disciplinary hearing).
If so, could I have this set down in writing.

This should scare the shit out of them.
You have put the ball firmly in their court.
There is no way they are going to be able to accept any liability.
If the guy on the disciplinary panel? hasn't got any medical qualifications, then your appeal should be allowed.
It should be allowed anyway, three days sickness is not a matter for a disciplinary hearing.

Question?
What's this about a disciplinary panel?
Who sat on it?
For example, was there more of them, than there was of your side?
And you can run your own defence, you don't have to have a Union Rep, you are entitled to have a work colleague as a witness in with you.

[CorraGeezer]

Re: Disciplinary for absence (even though I was blind)

Hi. Sorry, I have been away a few days and haven't been able to reply.

On the disciplinary panel were two men. One was my boss and another was a Line Manager from another area that was asked to sit in. Afterwards, my boss apologised off the record afterwards as he felt it was ridiculous too! But his job is to just follow company procedure, no matter how daft it is.

There was me and another man on my side. A union rep. I know I could have anybody but I figured that a union rep may know more about the legal side of things. turns out he wasn't much use.


I don't even think that my Line manager on the shift I should have been on at work has even got first aid training, let alone be able to diagnose any illness. We do have a works doctor tayht comes in every blue moon. However, it wasn't offered to me to speak to him or see him. He only comes in on request by the company so if they bring him up, will I be able to challenge that I wasn't offered any chance to be reviewed by him?

They also stated that because the doctor said I couldn't do my job, that was in direct accordance to what I had told him my job was. I should have asked to be placed in another area. The thing is though, my vision was severely impaired due to the light sensitivity and also the drops, which have this warning as a side effect

• [*=left]Cyclopentolate will cause blurred vision which may last for several hours. Do not drive or use tools or machines until your vision is clear again.

How could I do any other work when I had visual impairment and extreme light sensitivity?

[Johnboy007]

Re: Disciplinary for absence (even though I was blind)

Right, let's go back to the beginning........
What exactly was the charge for which you was disciplined?
What did you tell the doctor your job was?
The works doctor....... What does he come into the company for?
Which doctor told you that you couldn't do your job?
Could you also clarify your statement.... 'that was in direct accordance to what I told him my job was.'

If your vision was impaired, then you shouldn't work full stop, just as the doctor instructed.
You should write down the two questions I gave you, and also add the following question......
'If I return to work on receiving instructions to do so from the company, and these instructions are in direct conflict with the instructions and advice of a doctor.
Will the company accept full legal liability for any accident, or deterioration the companies instructions to return to work, may cause any medical condition I may have.
If so could I have this in writing for my records'.

This has again, thrown the ball back in the company's court.
There is no way the company will accept liability for going against a doctor.
This will prove your appeal, in that......
The doctor is the expert on whether you was fit for work.
As such, and in accordance to health and safety at work regulations 1974, you should not have received any disciplinary punishment, for what was a genuine sickness absence.
An employer has committed an offence if he contravenes any health and safety regulations.
Show this to your poor excuse for a union rep.
This case should have been killed dead in it's tracks from day one.
Please let me know the answers to the questions..

Ask the boss who told you he was just following company procedure...
'Is it company procedure to discipline employees for being off work, sick?
It is very unlikely that the company doctor Tayht, would dispute your condition.
aw:

[CorraGeezer]

Re: Disciplinary for absence (even though I was blind)

Right, let's go back to the beginning........
What exactly was the charge for which you was disciplined?
3rd absence in a rolling 12 month period. First I rang in. 2nd I came into work despite feeling unwell, I was sick and I was allowed to go home. 3rd time was on the doctors instruction not to go in

What did you tell the doctor your job was?.

I told him I work on a corrugating machine as an operator. There are many nip points and extremely hot surfaces

The works doctor....... What does he come into the company for?

I have no idea what he comes in for. I haven't seen him there for ages, I just know they have one that comes in every blue moon and isn't on site every day. Last I knew, he administered the flu jabs last year.

Which doctor told you that you couldn't do your job?

The eye doctor at the Eye casualty in Nottingham Queens Medical Centre. I went on Saturday and was told to come back Sunday. I went Sunday and was told to come back Tuesday. When I said that I had work so wouldnt need a specific time slot, he asked what I did. When I told him, he told me I shouldn't be driving or operating machinery and to rest my eyes.

Could you also clarify your statement.... 'that was in direct accordance to what I told him my job was.

I told him that I operate machinery and also have to operate a small Rocla truck that picks up 2 ton reels of paper in an area where people are walking about. Also that I work 25 miles away from home and have to travel. I understand that work shouldn't have to worry about my arrangements to and from work so I'm not going to bring that up

I have saved the advice you have given me so far. Thank you for your time in helping me with this. I doubt they can get anywhere past the fact that the medication I was on advises not to work on machinery as well. I think I have the pamphlet inside the box whit the side effects on too which shows this. I will bring that with me to the appeal. I doubt they can go against a doctors note and also a medical instruction on not using machinery.

[Johnboy007]

Re: Disciplinary for absence (even though I was blind)

The instruction from the doctor not to go to work is sufficient.
The fact that it is also against statutory regulations to discipline anyone for sickness absence.
You must point this out at your appeal.
Ask them to explain why they have gone against this legislation?
The man at disciplinary hearing has no medical qualification, that would enable him to deem you fit to work.

Have you got copies of company disciplinary procedures?
If push comes to shove, just tell them you will have to contact ACAS for advice on what to do next, about this unfair treatment.
If the decision goes against you, tell the company that you wish to take it to the next level of the appeal procedure.

[CorraGeezer]

Re: Disciplinary for absence (even though I was blind)

I will get a copy of the disciplinary procedure tonight. I may have to wait until Friday when I am in early as I'm on nights this week.

Again, thanks for the help.

[Johnboy007]

Re: Disciplinary for absence (even though I was blind)

I will get a copy of the disciplinary procedure tonight. I may have to wait until Friday when I am in early as I'm on nights this week.

Again, thanks for the help.

Ok my friend........