Investigation - leading to a disciplinary

[teaboy2]

Re: Investigation - leading to a disciplinary

The part timers disciplinary meeting should be held separately, and its irrelevant how long they have been there as the correct disciplinary procedure most be followed still.

Yes you should get copies of notes (minutes) taken during the meeting, you will be asked to sign, but read through them first and if something is there that was not stated in meeting ask for it to be removed, like wise for any corrections, then sign the updated version.

[G-side]

Re: Investigation - leading to a disciplinary

My head is spinning.

I have just got off the phone from the Op Manager and he is saying that they have emailed me the evidence - to a wrong EMAIL address (which I have never owned).

Problem is that he called me on my mobile and therefore the conversation is recorded.

I feel like just walking out! What should I do? Shall I go to the Doctors and get signed off?

They still want to conduct the disciplinary on Thursday without providing the evidence. How can I prove this?

Please advise asap as I am in a total state of shock with this.

[teaboy2]

Re: Investigation - leading to a disciplinary

My head is spinning.

I have just got off the phone from the Op Manager and he is saying that they have emailed me the evidence - to a wrong EMAIL address (which I have never owned). Did you tell them that was not your email address?

Problem is that he called me on my mobile and therefore the conversation is recorded. - Write down what was said during the call and by whom (transcript of full conversation) as that can be submitted to tribunal - Include date and time off the call.

I feel like just walking out! What should I do? Shall I go to the Doctors and get signed off? - No. Getting signed off will not delay the disciplinary.

They still want to conduct the disciplinary on Thursday without providing the evidence. How can I prove this?

Please advise asap as I am in a total state of shock with this.

You need to put a request for the evidence in writing to them and request in writing that the meeting be postponed until they can supply you with written copies of the evidence, sending by email is not good enough!

[G-side]

Re: Investigation - leading to a disciplinary

Sorry meant conversation was therefore NOT recorded.

[teaboy2]

Re: Investigation - leading to a disciplinary

Sorry meant conversation was therefore NOT recorded.

Whether it was recorded or not, simply write out a transcript of the conversation you had - Title it "Phone conversation on xx/xx/2014 with Mr/Mrs xxxx (Ops manager) at 12:00am (Put approx time in), regarding non supply of evidence:"

That way you have a written transcript of the phone conversation which is what you need in order to submit it to tribunal as evidence. Also if possible take a photo of the call log on your phone (use another phone to do this) showing the line managers number and time and date of call - They will then struggle to deny the call took place!

[G-side]

Re: Investigation - leading to a disciplinary

OK. That's easy enough.

So you do not want me to send another postponement letter to the Ops Manager then? Again, reiterating my request for a postponement.

As stated, they have now sent some evidence (albeit by email) since my Post #17. Or are you suggesting that I force them to send this all again by hard copy?

I sent a postponement letter request yesterday which they have rejected verbally.

[teaboy2]

Re: Investigation - leading to a disciplinary

Are you able to print out what they have sent you?

How much evidence is still missing?

[G-side]

Re: Investigation - leading to a disciplinary

Yes I am able to print it off and have done so and had a mate look through it with me.

My line manager set a precedent for the actions they have accused me of but I am nervous about dragging them into it. They carried out the investigations.

I asked for copies of all recorded conversations that they had had with relevant customers but they have not provided this.

[teaboy2]

Re: Investigation - leading to a disciplinary

Do they refer to such conversations with customers? They would need to provide written witness statements (Transcripts, which they would also have to provided to tribunal should it get that far) signed by the customers if they can not provide audio recordings of the phone calls.

They simply can not go ahead with a "fair" disciplinary if they are not able to provide what they alleged to be witness statements in writing or audio.

As for your line manager, hell yeah drop him it, your fighting for your drop here, its not your duty to your line manager to protect him now is it!

[G-side]

Re: Investigation - leading to a disciplinary

They do not refer to such conversations in the disciplinary hearing letter but they referred to particular customers / potential customers in the investigations.

One particular customer name repeats across all the investigatory minutes from 4 separate employees (including myself). I do not believe that they have called the customer and have asked them to provide proof that they have called the customer prior to the date of the last investigatory meeting.

Do you think I should go VIP and post up all correspondence?

Also, just had a verbal conversation with the Ops Manager and he has offered a postponement until next Monday. I would rather it be over and done with because I think they have already decided they want rid of me.

[teaboy2]

Re: Investigation - leading to a disciplinary

Accept the postponement, and demand copies of all documents they refer to in the letter. If they have not got witness statements from the customers, yet, at the meeting, try referring to what they say a customer has said. Stop them mid conversation and state, as they have not provided any witness statement signed by said customer, in advance, then such allegation is hearsay only and can not be used against you if they wish to carry out a "Fair" and unbiased disciplinary procedure, supported by hard documented evidence on their part - In other words, they can not simply throw a red herring into the meeting!

[G-side]

Re: Investigation - leading to a disciplinary

Thanks for all the input so far. It really is appreciated.

I am still not clear why they are continuing with the disciplinary of the part time who has only been here 6 months.

The Disciplinary Procedure states,

"The purpose of the Disciplinary Procedure is to outline a recognised and consistent system to deal with any issues of conduct, capability or other circumstances which may result in a disciplinary warning or dismissal.
The Disciplinary Procedure does not form part of your Contract of Employment for the first year of continuous employment.
Before considering a warning or dismissal, steps will be taken by the Company to establish the facts."

Some of the notes in the investigatory minutes she was placed under seem to implicate that there was a conspiracy of collusion. The investigator made four statements in one sentence in the notes and the part timer replied "yes". She now does not think that the statements were made in that manner and has not rebuked them.

She is doing a Masters at the moment and is more focussed on that than checking the notes of her meetings.

Given that her contract states that "The Disciplinary Procedure does not form part of your Contract of Employment for the first year of continuous employment.". Can she point blank refuse to attend the meeting and resign?

If she did that, would her notes from the investigations (which should not have included her) be used in my disciplinary?

Furthermore, I have not received the notes from the 2nd investigatory meeting with the new employee who was told in her training (by the area/line manager) that my other colleague was to be managed out. The one that has already resigned.

After the new employee had their 2nd meeting, they promptly left for the day simply saying that, "I have covered my own ar*e".

Both myself and the part timer think that the new employee has said something untrue.

Question is should I not chase the employer for these notes in the knowledge that they will not be able to rely on them in the disciplinary? This to me is probably the most important aspect along with the fact that my area/line manager has set a precedent for the figures not being reported in line with normal company rules.

[teaboy2]

Re: Investigation - leading to a disciplinary

Thanks for all the input so far. It really is appreciated.

I am still not clear why they are continuing with the disciplinary of the part time who has only been here 6 months.

The Disciplinary Procedure states,

"The purpose of the Disciplinary Procedure is to outline a recognised and consistent system to deal with any issues of conduct, capability or other circumstances which may result in a disciplinary warning or dismissal.
The Disciplinary Procedure does not form part of your Contract of Employment for the first year of continuous employment.
Before considering a warning or dismissal, steps will be taken by the Company to establish the facts."

Some of the notes in the investigatory minutes she was placed under seem to implicate that there was a conspiracy of collusion. The investigator made four statements in one sentence in the notes and the part timer replied "yes". She now does not think that the statements were made in that manner and has not rebuked them.

She is doing a Masters at the moment and is more focussed on that than checking the notes of her meetings.

Given that her contract states that "The Disciplinary Procedure does not form part of your Contract of Employment for the first year of continuous employment.". Can she point blank refuse to attend the meeting and resign?

If she did that, would her notes from the investigations (which should not have included her) be used in my disciplinary?

Furthermore, I have not received the notes from the 2nd investigatory meeting with the new employee who was told in her training (by the area/line manager) that my other colleague was to be managed out. The one that has already resigned.

After the new employee had their 2nd meeting, they promptly left for the day simply saying that, "I have covered my own ar*e".

Both myself and the part timer think that the new employee has said something untrue.

Question is should I not chase the employer for these notes in the knowledge that they will not be able to rely on them in the disciplinary? This to me is probably the most important aspect along with the fact that my area/line manager has set a precedent for the figures not being reported in line with normal company rules.

Yes you need to chase the employer for those notes, if it relates to your own disciplinary.

As for the part timer and what it states in her contract about the disciplinary procedure, well that term in the contract is invalid, as employers MUST carry out disciplinary procedures as per ACAS guidance 1: Disciplinary and Grievance Procedure, regardless of amount of time in employment. Only time they can dismiss a person without one is by giving notice during a probationary period to end the contract, or by what i call a mutual termination of contract agreement, which supersedes the employment contract.

[G-side]

Re: Investigation - leading to a disciplinary

Thank you Teaboy2

Referring back to your previous post, I am really very tempted not to ask for this information as it puts them into a more difficult place regarding unfair dismissal.

If they have not got witness statements from the customers, yet, at the meeting, try referring to what they say a customer has said. Stop them mid conversation and state, as they have not provided any witness statement signed by said customer, in advance, then such allegation is hearsay only and can not be used against you if they wish to carry out a "Fair" and unbiased disciplinary procedure, supported by hard documented evidence on their part - In other words, they can not simply throw a red herring into the meeting!

I have had a call from the part-timer who advises that the customer to which the main issue relates to for her and myself has come in today. It turns out that she has been given a credit on her account yesterday by the line manager "as a thank you" for providing "general feedback".

The line manager has therefore lied yet again as yesterday she told me she had a written signed witness statement from the customer.

[teaboy2]

Re: Investigation - leading to a disciplinary

Thank you Teaboy2

Referring back to your previous post, I am really very tempted not to ask for this information as it puts them into a more difficult place regarding unfair dismissal.



I have had a call from the part-timer who advises that the customer to which the main issue relates to for her and myself has come in today. It turns out that she has been given a credit on her account yesterday by the line manager "as a thank you" for providing "general feedback".

The line manager has therefore lied yet again as yesterday she told me she had a written signed witness statement from the customer.

Regarding the notes, it is off course up to you. But given the rest having those notes would not change anything regarding unfair dismissal, in fact, by requesting them and the employer refusing or failing to provide them, it would strengthen any unfair dismissal claim.

As for the Customer, can you get the part timer to get a print out of that customers account or take a photo of it on the computer screen using her mobile showing the amount credited and reason for, along with the date? As it sounds like they offered her financial incentive in return for giving possible false statements. Put it this way, if she had a legitimate complaint, they wouldn't need to pay her anything, and its unusual that they have do so, for what is general feedback!