recoup of training costs

[trainer81]

Hi there

I have recently handed in my notice as a trainer. My employer has placed me on courses over the last year so that I would be able to deliver extra courses that he can charge for. I have been asked to payback the costs of this training as I am leaving within a year of having the training. It is on a sliding scale. However 1) he asked me to do the training and not the other way around and 2) he is asking for the cost of the course, wages, hotel, travel and subsistence costs.

I feel that this breakdown of costs is unfair. Can any one advise me as to what he can claim back and also if I should pay anything back at all. I'm not looking to stiff the employer but want it to be fair. The cost he is trying to.claim is greater than my months salary.

Many thanks for your help!!

[enquirer]

Re: recoup of training costs

Does your contract, or any subsequent documentation to which you agreed, make any mention of training costs/reimbursements?

[trainer81]

Re: recoup of training costs

Hi there

My contract mentions about I may need to undertake training as part of my role and the company will organise a separate agreement to deal with it. They then produce a "training agreement" which says that the costs of the course / study to a total of x can be reclaimed on a sliding scale over 1 year. However there is no mention of what constitutes the training costs. To my mind the reasonable costs would be the cost of the course plus any relevant exams but the employer is trying to add my wages, travel, subsistence and hotel costs. If the course was a requirement of my job for me to do it and was of pure benefit to me I could understand but these are courses to enable me to teach new courses to clients. The employer has already earn back the costs of these courses in sales of courses which I have delivered. Is it reasonable that I have to pay the extra costs of wages etc or anything at all as the courses were requested by him and not me and he has earnt income as a result??

Many thanks!!

[teaboy2]

Re: recoup of training costs

First off all, put it in writing to the employer that you do not agree to any deductions from your wages, and if he attempts to make any deduction, you will deem them unlawful under section 13 employment rights act 1996. If the contract does not state a clear break down of training costs that are to be repaid, and am assuming there is a separate contract regarding repayment of training costs every time your sent on courses, then they can go Foxtrot Oscar.

Can you post a copy of this contract up, minus personal and employers details?

The fact hes trying to reclaim your wages for when you were on the course, just goes to show how unlikely it is that he has any legal ground here at all.

[Tools]

Re: recoup of training costs

As you rightly say, the courses were to enable you to carry out your duties and enable your employer to gain further work, they were not for self gain.

They then produce a "training agreement" which says that the costs of the course / study to a total of x can be reclaimed on a sliding scale over 1 year. However there is no mention of what constitutes the training costs.

Does this set an upper limit of what can be reclaimed. As Teaboy asks, could you post a copy of the contract (minus personal details) and also a copy of the training agreement. If necessary, if the copy is easily identifiable, scan it and email it to admin@legalbeagles.info and I can forward a copy to Teaboy also.

[trainer81]

Re: recoup of training costs

Hi guys

Thanks for the replies. I have typed out below the section in my contract of employment that is relevant and also the training agreement for you to comment on. Many thanks again for your help and assistance!!

Contract of Employment

Deductions

The company reserves the right to deduct any outstanding monies you owe to the company from your pay or on termination of employment from your final pay. This includes any previous error or overpayment, holiday or time off in lieu taken but not yet accrued, the costs of damages or losses attributable to your negligence or dishonesty, cash shortages from the till, or the cost of personal calls on company office or mobile telephones.

Where you have entered into a separate deductions agreement with the company, any outstanding costs detailed in the agreement will be deducted from your pay.

Training Agreement

Between x and company

The employer hereby agrees to meet the course fees / training costs incurred by the employee in [persuing the following training course/ course of study:

"name of course"

The course fees / training costs are as follows:

"total costs"

It is a condition of yourt employment that the employee attends all further education classes, and pass their exams satisfactorily. Where the employee is unable to attend further education, they must notify the company by following the absence procedures.

If the employee fails to complete the course or leaves service of the company either prior to the completion of the course, or within one month of the date of completion of the course, then 100 percent of all the training costs are to be paid back to the company in full by the employee.

If the employee leaves the service of the company at any point after one month of the date of completion of the courtse, then the training costs required to be paid back by the employee will reduce on a sliding scale of 1/12th for each month that lapses.

The company reserves the right to deduct from the employees pay any money owed under this agreement, subject to the provisions of the employment rights act 1996. The employee by his or her signature agrees to the deduction of any monies owed from his or her pay

Signed

Dated etc

On the back of the agreement hand written in are the values for the cost of the course, wages, travel, hotel and subsistence. Sadly i have signed two of these for courses i sat early on in my employment BUT signed them after the course was sat. I currently have two more the employer is asking me to sign now which I have refused to so far.

Cheers all!!

[teaboy2]

Re: recoup of training costs

Hi guys

Thanks for the replies. I have typed out below the section in my contract of employment that is relevant and also the training agreement for you to comment on. Many thanks again for your help and assistance!!

Contract of Employment

Deductions

The company reserves the right to deduct any outstanding monies you owe to the company from your pay or on termination of employment from your final pay. This includes any previous error or overpayment, holiday or time off in lieu taken but not yet accrued, the costs of damages or losses attributable to your negligence or dishonesty, cash shortages from the till, or the cost of personal calls on company office or mobile telephones.

Where you have entered into a separate deductions agreement with the company, any outstanding costs detailed in the agreement will be deducted from your pay.

Training Agreement

Between x and company

The employer hereby agrees to meet the course fees / training costs incurred by the employee in [persuing the following training course/ course of study:

"name of course"

The course fees / training costs are as follows:

"total costs"

It is a condition of yourt employment that the employee attends all further education classes, and pass their exams satisfactorily. Where the employee is unable to attend further education, they must notify the company by following the absence procedures.

If the employee fails to complete the course or leaves service of the company either prior to the completion of the course, or within one month of the date of completion of the course, then 100 percent of all the training costs are to be paid back to the company in full by the employee.

If the employee leaves the service of the company at any point after one month of the date of completion of the courtse, then the training costs required to be paid back by the employee will reduce on a sliding scale of 1/12th for each month that lapses.

The company reserves the right to deduct from the employees pay any money owed under this agreement, subject to the provisions of the employment rights act 1996. The employee by his or her signature agrees to the deduction of any monies owed from his or her pay

Signed

Dated etc

On the back of the agreement hand written in are the values for the cost of the course, wages, travel, hotel and subsistence. Sadly i have signed two of these for courses i sat early on in my employment BUT signed them after the course was sat. I currently have two more the employer is asking me to sign now which I have refused to so far.

Cheers all!!

You say you signed them after the course was sat, is your signature on the agreements dated for the date you signed them? And do you have evidence as to when you actually attended the courses, which would prove the date you signed the agreement for those particular courses was actually after the event of attending those courses?

[trainer81]

Re: recoup of training costs

The forms were dated by the employer as after the course. I also have the certificates to.confirm the dates the.course were sat. So yesbi have that evidence. The employer wants to have a meeting tomorrow to discuss this but I can forsee them just trying to guilt trip me into trying to get me to sign the last two forms I have refused too.

[teaboy2]

Re: recoup of training costs

The forms were dated by the employer as after the course. I also have the certificates to.confirm the dates the.course were sat. So yesbi have that evidence. The employer wants to have a meeting tomorrow to discuss this but I can forsee them just trying to guilt trip me into trying to get me to sign the last two forms I have refused too.

In that case the agreements do not stand, so long as you can definitely prove that they were signed after the course that they relate to was completed.

Put it this way, you don't have someone build you a house and then sign the contract with them after the fact.

Also they can not reclaim travel and accommodation expenses, as your traveling was not to your main place of work and is therefore now classed as ordinary day to day travel to and from work.

Wages can also not be reclaimed, as even though you were on a training course, you were doing it as part of your employment and are therefore entitled to be paid your standard wage for your time on the course.

Personally you should visit a solicitor for some expert legal advice, who will no doubt confirm what i have stated. Alternatively you should speak to ACAS for free advice and they can also speak to the employer on your behalf.

[trainer81]

Re: recoup of training costs

Teapot I really appreciate your help and feedback and what you have said there gives factual basis to what I guessed was wrong.

I had spoken to acas but sadly they were in this instance about as useful as a chocolate teapot as all they kept repeating was it's down to the companies policy over and over. The poor lass was on a loop I suspect lol

I will have my meeting today and I will post back what the results are. Many thanks again for your patience and advice!!!

[Tools]

Re: recoup of training costs

How did the meeting go?