Sacked for Gross Misconduct on Thursday. Few queries

[teaboy2]

Re: Sacked for Gross Misconduct on Thursday. Few queries

I'm not gonna point fingers but recently quite a few people in a different dept have lost their jobs because they were making a loss on their service, and one of the last things I did was submit our quarterly survey to the Statistics office. We have 20 less staff in this q3 than we did in q2 this financial year (about 315 > 290 odd). Sure, if they had no reason to pick me up on anything I wouldn't have been in this situation - but it does feel a bit out of character for them considering like I stated before I worked there for 9 months as a apprentice beforehand and still got the job over 8 people (i watched them all be interviewed in the room just across from me before mine!)

They also recently took all their property repairs in house, so took on a TON of new staff, vehicles, materials etc and through the grapevine it was costing them a ton. Again, not saying they were cutting costs, but it's something I've thought about.

I just feel to completely sack me on the spot a week before xmas knowing full well that I rent my own apartment and have no family within 200 miles is extremely harsh. Not saying employers SHOULD give people favours and leeway, I understand how the world works, but they didn't even give me a chance. I could understand if they put me on a final warning, put measures in place to closely monitor things like they should have and told me to make up the time. Even the investigating officer stated in the meeting with my manager (I have the notes from it) that as they're paying for it they should have had monthly diarised meetings with me regarding my progress and kept in the loop with college themselves.

I personally feel as if I've de-frauded the company out of 1000's and found it hurtful to say I broke their trust when I handle 1000£'s of physical money, peoples confidential details, have access to everyones salary, the safe, and so on. I know it's the principle and and not the amount of money they ''lost'' which I worked out at around 200£- but even so. Don't get me wrong I know I could have clarified matters even informally, but I hand on heart never mentioned it as to me it was always a day release and I did use the time beforehand to get back up to speed on my work. They asked me if I could physically prove this, but I said obviously I couldn't and my results speak for themselves so far (passed everything first time). The wage never mattered - I would have happily put 4 hours or whatever it was I attended college on my time sheet and had that as my day release. I would hardly have de-frauded my company for 8 hours a month on minimum wage.

I'm not becoming to bitter about it however, college have given me their blessing which was the main thing for me qualification wise as I was never guaranteed a job once my contract was over. The only concern of mine now is obviously getting something in the meantime ASAP, and when I do get asked for a interview or references I'm pretty much screwed already if they can basically inform potential employers I was sacked from gross misconduct for fraud.

Ok in regards to your answer to question 7 in my original post. Was there anything in the contract saying you must contact them if your course times change or notify them as such. Am assuming you did tell someone when you told them the change of days and change from once every 2 weeks to once every week. Therefore if you were told to still put 7.24, and they were also doing it for evening meetings as well, and your manager (if it was he you informed of change of times and frequency of the course) failed to imform them of the changes and the fact the contract only permits full day release and not half day release. Then you have a strong case, as you acted according to instructions and within the terms of your contract. If what your manager instructed you to do was incorrect then you are not to blame nor are you guilty of fraud or gross misconduct. If anything the company owes you money for the additional travel time on top of the normal time it takes you to travel to work.

So for example if it usually only takes you 1hr round trip to get to and from your work place, but takes you a round trip (including waiting time) of 3 hours to get too and from the college, then they owe you 2 hours pay for each day spent at college. Though minus the difference between times spent at college compared to your normal working hours at work. So will need to do the sums to see if they owe you anything for the additional travel time.

Also on a side note, when you said you were an apprentice 9 months prior to getting this job. Was there any break in employment between when you were an apprentice and when you started this job. And is that 9 months apprentice and 18 months in current job? Bluebottle knows what am getting at here hehe.

[BZ14]

Re: Sacked for Gross Misconduct on Thursday. Few queries

Ok in regards to your answer to question 7 in my original post. Was there anything in the contract saying you must contact them if your course times change or notify them as such. Am assuming you did tell someone when you told them the change of days and change from once every 2 weeks to once every week. Therefore if you were told to still put 7.24, and they were also doing it for evening meetings as well, and your manager (if it was he you informed of change of times and frequency of the course) failed to imform them of the changes and the fact the contract only permits full day release and not half day release. Then you have a strong case, as you acted according to instructions and within the terms of your contract. If what your manager instructed you to do was incorrect then you are not to blame nor are you guilty of fraud or gross misconduct. If anything the company owes you money for the additional travel time on top of the normal time it takes you to travel to work.

Yeah, I told my manager right away that my day had changed. Not formally though - it was in passing as we didn't have regular meetings regarding college and my progress etc. I actually wasn't 100% on if I told them the times too - they implicitly say I didn't, however as nothing was diarised and for the sake of argument I'll agree I didn't. From memory nothing states anything about course times and requiring to inform them - my manager pins it entirely on me.

I'm reading the notes that the investigating officer had with my manager and he admits ''I didn't feel the administration from the college was structured'' and ''the admin could have been tighter in confirming the days'' (exact words) yet never made any attempt to remedy it. The investigating officer also states that ''It shouldn't run purely on trust as we're funding the course'' and ''in future measures should be put in place'' and my manager says ''I would agree''.

So for example if it usually only takes you 1hr round trip to get to and from your work place, but takes you a round trip (including waiting time) of 3 hours to get too and from the college, then they owe you 2 hours pay for each day spent at college. Though minus the difference between times spent at college compared to your normal working hours at work. So will need to do the sums to see if they owe you anything for the additional travel time.

Also on a side note, when you said you were an apprentice 9 months prior to getting this job. Was there any break in employment between when you were an apprentice and when you started this job. And is that 9 months apprentice and 18 months in current job? Bluebottle knows what am getting at here hehe.

Sadly no, I didn't pass the 2 year mark. I would have been there 2 years in April 14. I started in April 2012 and Started in my new role in January 2013.

[Inca]

Re: Sacked for Gross Misconduct on Thursday. Few queries

Bluebottle knows what am getting at here hehe.


Do feel free to share it with the rest of us taking the time to post on this thread then

[teaboy2]

Re: Sacked for Gross Misconduct on Thursday. Few queries

Well i was hoping the 9 months as an apprentice was on top of the 18 months the op said they had worked there. But alas that is not the case.

BZ14

Read the information on ACAS website that i linked to earlier and get back to us if they have failed to follow them fully or have not followed accurately no matter how small of insignificant you think it may be. I'll post up what i think your best approach will be once you have gotten back to us.

[wales01man]

Re: Sacked for Gross Misconduct on Thursday. Few queries

The OP wants to careful with remarks about knowing so man financial details could be viewed as a threat like saying to someone"I know where you live"
Just my view

[teaboy2]

Re: Sacked for Gross Misconduct on Thursday. Few queries

To be honest, details of the companies finances are of no concern to me unless there was clear evidence that they dismissed the OP to deliberately avoid having to pay redundancy, though i see no evidence of that. All i see is the manager giving the OP instructions, and the OP followed those instructions, the OP informed the manger of the changes to college times, and the manager failed to act and provide any new instructions to the OP. The company has hinted on lack of communication from the college and poor procedural rules within the company as per the reports by the investigator and the comments made by the manager during the investigation.

So says to me, the company did not have sufficient grounds to give even a verbal let alone dismiss the OP. As the OP was only doing as instructed to do, and no provisions where in their contract as to half days etc, and company policy via customary practice was to sign off as 7.24 and not actual hours taken for time released on college course.

To me this has come about due to poor management and lack of sticking to policy or enforcing them. in other words the manager has been lazy and negligent when it comes to managing his staff and his duties. And this has lead to the OP being dismissed, for simply doing as the were told.

[wales01man]

Re: Sacked for Gross Misconduct on Thursday. Few queries

In simple terms what chance has the OP of getting the job back or winning a case of unfair dismissal against this company as they have been there less than 2 years?

[teaboy2]

Re: Sacked for Gross Misconduct on Thursday. Few queries

In simple terms what chance has the OP of getting the job back or winning a case of unfair dismissal against this company as they have been there less than 2 years?

Slim - But they still have the second and cheaper option of civil court to reclaim lost earnings for wrongful dismissal as well as earnings that would have been paid for the period it took them to carry out a properly investigation and disciplinary procedure, should it be the case they had not followed correct procedures. Which they have a good chance of having a successful claim in my opinion.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Sacked for Gross Misconduct on Thursday. Few queries

The OP wants to careful with remarks about knowing so many financial details could be viewed as a threat like saying to someone"I know where you live"

But has he concealed a wireless spy camera in Inca's knicker drawer?

[wales01man]

Re: Sacked for Gross Misconduct on Thursday. Few queries

CC I got the video here

[BZ14]

Re: Sacked for Gross Misconduct on Thursday. Few queries

Slim - But they still have the second and cheaper option of civil court to reclaim lost earnings for wrongful dismissal as well as earnings that would have been paid for the period it took them to carry out a properly investigation and disciplinary procedure, should it be the case they had not followed correct procedures. Which they have a good chance of having a successful claim in my opinion.

I think now my biggest concern isn't getting my job back per se. I feel like the bridges have been burned and I just want to move onwards and upwards. All I want is for my manager to accept there is responsibility on his side with the investigating officer clearly highlighting flaws in regards to his & company procedures and not just pinning it on me 100% and hammering me for it on any future references. It's a dangerous game because I don't want to bring college into the equation too much and their clear admin faults as my tutor and the college/training provider manager both support me 100% to continue the course and I don't want to damage relations with them.

I emailed H.R regarding future references and the H.R rep states ''any information provided will be factual as employers will be liable for information provided'', which is fine legal talk and imo translates to me as ''we're gonna **** you over in any reference we give''. So how do I proceed from that? I've applied for every accounting post I can, queried with companies that aren't advertising and applied for any remedial jobs to just tie me over for now. I'm waiting on responses but when the dreaded question of ''why did you leave'' etc and references get sent out...then what?

[CleverClogs]

Re: Sacked for Gross Misconduct on Thursday. Few queries

I don't know much about Employment Law per se,,but speaking as a layperson I can see your company's point.

Bully for you.

I can't, nor do I understand how the company has actually lost anything as a result of this schemozzle.

There are some things that no decent man of conscience would do and one of them is to sack someone just before Christmas.

Thankfully, it seems that the company is a housing association and so I am most unlikely ever to have any dealings with those barbarous, penny-pinching oafs who make the unreformed Ebenezer Scrooge seem almost philanthropic. They disgust me utterly and I wish them all nightmares for the next fortnight..

[CleverClogs]

Re: Sacked for Gross Misconduct on Thursday. Few queries

But has he concealed a wireless spy camera in Inca's knicker drawer?

CC I got the video here

A video nasty or just a nasty video? :bolt:

[wales01man]

Re: Sacked for Gross Misconduct on Thursday. Few queries

An eye opener you don't know what your missing.
If she reads this we are both DEAD

[CleverClogs]

Re: Sacked for Gross Misconduct on Thursday. Few queries

I emailed H.R regarding future references and the H.R rep states ''any information provided will be factual as employers will be liable for information provided'', which is fine legal talk and imo translates to me as ''we're gonna **** you over in any reference we give''. So how do I proceed from that? I've applied for every accounting post I can, queried with companies that aren't advertising and applied for any remedial jobs to just tie me over for now. I'm waiting on responses but when the dreaded question of ''why did you leave'' etc and references get sent out...then what?

As long as the references are purely factual and neutral, stating when you started, when you stopped and posts filled, there shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Your reason for leaving was, surely, just "a difference of opinion".