Sacked for Gross Misconduct on Thursday. Few queries

[BZ14]

Hi All,

I was sacked from my job of just over 18 months for gross misconduct (summary dismissal I believe) - I'll try keep the story brief and just factual.

I worked in a Finance section of said company, and as part of my contract I had a ''day release'' at college to gain accounting qualifications. From Feb 13 - Oct 13 I was attending for a full day every 2 weeks on a Monday. This changed in October 13 to a half day every Wednesday - our original tutor had moved up to teach a higher module and it was the only time frame our new tutor could fit us in. This was due to last till Feb 14 latest, or earlier depending on how soon we finished the module we were on. I was always told to put a standard time when out of office or training externally as 7.24, as it worked out as a average for my 37 hour working week. My employer found out via a review that I had changed to a half day and told me this needs to be investigated. As a result I had a meeting with a H.R rep, investigating officer + note taker. I was asked back for another meeting when I got officially sacked - they played it by the book in regards to sending me the notes from my meeting and the meeting they had with my manager.

I never had any formal or diarised meetings with my manager regarding college, and I was sure I had mentioned that the day and time had in fact changed as obviously they would query why I was in Monday and off on the Wednesday. After reading the notes from the meeting my manager had with H.R they did push the fact that he didn't ever diarise or schedule meetings with me regarding college like they do in other departments, and instead he blamed it entirely on myself as it was a ''trust'' thing. He said he still would have had me come in regardless from 9-11am on college days, to give me time to catch my train to get to college (45 minute walk to the station > 30 minute train ride).

Additionally, college never questioned why I turned up in ''plain clothes'', so I assumed that college had shown some courtesy and contacted my employer to ask if it was okay for me to me out of office every week. There has been cuts to other areas of the companies, and I'm not disputing the fact that in retrospect I could have formally clarified the times had changed, but I do feel there's potential for a ulterior motive for my sacking.

I am going to appeal as I do feel that the situation could have been handled better between all parties and don't feel the burden should have been placed on me solely.

Legally I don't know where I stand - probably nowhere as most H.R teams play everything by the book but I do feel slightly hard done by for the reasons I've listed. Any further questions please ask as I may have missed something. Also, any advice on how to proceed from here would be fantastic too. College management rang me direct and gave me their blessing to continue on the course and will endeavour to find me employment through their contacts, which was the main thing for me career wise - but ''fraud'' or ''gross misconduct'' and ''falsifying timesheets'' aren't exactly comforting words in regards to finding a new job.

Thanks.

[bluebottle]

Re: Sacked for Gross Misconduct on Thursday. Few queries

Hi All,

I was sacked from my job of just over 18 months for gross misconduct (summary dismissal I believe) - I'll try keep the story brief and just factual.

I worked in a Finance section of said company, and as part of my contract I had a ''day release'' at college to gain accounting qualifications. From Feb 13 - Oct 13 I was attending for a full day every 2 weeks on a Monday. This changed in October 13 to a half day every Wednesday - our original tutor had moved up to teach a higher module and it was the only time frame our new tutor could fit us in. This was due to last till Feb 14 latest, or earlier depending on how soon we finished the module we were on. I was always told to put a standard time when out of office or training externally as 7.24, as it worked out as a average for my 37 hour working week. My employer found out via a review that I had changed to a half day and told me this needs to be investigated. As a result I had a meeting with a H.R rep, investigating officer + note taker. I was asked back for another meeting when I got officially sacked - they played it by the book in regards to sending me the notes from my meeting and the meeting they had with my manager.

I never had any formal or diarised meetings with my manager regarding college, and I was sure I had mentioned that the day and time had in fact changed as obviously they would query why I was in Monday and off on the Wednesday. After reading the notes from the meeting my manager had with H.R they did push the fact that he didn't ever diarise or schedule meetings with me regarding college like they do in other departments, and instead he blamed it entirely on myself as it was a ''trust'' thing. He said he still would have had me come in regardless from 9-11am on college days, to give me time to catch my train to get to college (45 minute walk to the station > 30 minute train ride).

Additionally, college never questioned why I turned up in ''plain clothes'', so I assumed that college had shown some courtesy and contacted my employer to ask if it was okay for me to me out of office every week. There has been cuts to other areas of the companies, and I'm not disputing the fact that in retrospect I could have formally clarified the times had changed, but I do feel there's potential for a ulterior motive for my sacking.

I am going to appeal as I do feel that the situation could have been handled better between all parties and don't feel the burden should have been placed on me solely.

Legally I don't know where I stand - probably nowhere as most H.R teams play everything by the book but I do feel slightly hard done by for the reasons I've listed. Any further questions please ask as I may have missed something. Also, any advice on how to proceed from here would be fantastic too. College management rang me direct and gave me their blessing to continue on the course and will endeavour to find me employment through their contacts, which was the main thing for me career wise - but ''fraud'' or ''gross misconduct'' and ''falsifying timesheets'' aren't exactly comforting words in regards to finding a new job.

Thanks.

Hi BZ and to Legal Beagles.

As you will see, I have highlighted two phrases in your initial post. I hope your former employer's HR department has some very strong evidence to substantiate these allegations because if they have not, they are going to find themselves in very serious trouble indeed. With allegations such as these, "reasonable belief" or "reasonable suspicion" are not going to be enough. As allegations go, they are among some of the most serious and have to be regarded as such. The onus of proof lies on your employer, not you. Your former employer's HR department may, indeed, have an ulterior motive, but that is speculation without substantiating evidence.

Other Beagles will be along to give advice also, so please hang around.

[BZ14]

Re: Sacked for Gross Misconduct on Thursday. Few queries

Hi BZ and to Legal Beagles.

As you will see, I have highlighted two phrases in your initial post. I hope your former employer's HR department has some very strong evidence to substantiate these allegations because if they have not, they are going to find themselves in very serious trouble indeed. With allegations such as these, "reasonable belief" or "reasonable suspicion" are not going to be enough. As allegations go, they are among some of the most serious and have to be regarded as such. The onus of proof lies on your employer, not you. Your former employer's HR department may, indeed, have an ulterior motive, but that is speculation without substantiating evidence.

Other Beagles will be along to give advice also, so please hang around.

Thanks for the welcome.

Basically their reasoning is is that because my full day release had changed from a full day to a half day I should have attended work beforehand - however I was under the impression always that day release was exactly that and I put the standard 7.24 hours worked on my time sheet as that is the norm for whenever you're out of office all day on training/courses or even external convention things etc.

So essentially I was being ''fraudulent'' by claiming a extra 2-3 hours by putting 7.24 when my college was only from 1230-finish (usually 4.30-5).

[bluebottle]

Re: Sacked for Gross Misconduct on Thursday. Few queries

Thanks for the welcome.

Basically their reasoning is is that because my full day release had changed from a full day to a half day I should have attended work beforehand - however I was under the impression always that day release was exactly that and I put the standard 7.24 hours worked on my time sheet as that is the norm for whenever you're out of office all day on training/courses or even external convention things etc.

So essentially I was being ''fraudulent'' by claiming a extra 2-3 hours by putting 7.24 when my college was only from 1230-finish (usually 4.30-5).

Okay. A few questions -

1. How many hours were you at the training establishment when day release was all day?
2. How many hours when this reduced to half a day?
3. Were you permitted to claim for travelling time?
4. Would going into work beforehand have made you late for the training sessions?
5. Was an investigatory meeting held?
6. Was a disciplinary meeting held?

[BZ14]

Re: Sacked for Gross Misconduct on Thursday. Few queries

Okay. A few questions -

1. How many hours were you at the training establishment when day release was all day? My train was at 8.57am, college started at 9.30am and we finished around 4.30/5 so basically a full day.
2. How many hours when this reduced to half a day? 1.30 > 4.30/5 depending on when we finished.
3. Were you permitted to claim for travelling time? Not 100% I know we could claim for travel fees (never did) however. I was always told regardless to put 7.24 down as it was the average - I often would finish just after my train + had to wait a hour for the next one and when I queried this I was told it was a blanket 7.24.
4. Would going into work beforehand have made you late for the training sessions? No - well, my manager stated in his meeting with the investigating officer they would have expected me in till 11am. 45 minute walk to the station + lunch and 30 minute train journey gave me just enough time. I did actually have to attend work after the first hearing for 2 sessions and left at 11am. I know convenience isn't a issue for them however on these occasions I never had time to really start anything in the morning, and basically had to walk back on myself past my house to the station so it seemed rather stupid. I know I can't physically prove it but I did use the time in the morning to do college work - and my tutors are happy for me to remain on the course and still have faith in me which shows my work wasn't ''lacking''.
5. Was an investigatory meeting held? Yes, I had one with a H.R rep, a investigating officer (internal member of staff - some line manager from another dept I believe and a note taker)
6. Was a disciplinary meeting held? No, just the investigating one. Well, apart from the meeting I've just had where I got the news.

Answers in bold. Thanks!

[CleverClogs]

Re: Sacked for Gross Misconduct on Thursday. Few queries

I am going to appeal as I do feel that the situation could have been handled better between all parties and don't feel the burden should have been placed on me solely.

Legally I don't know where I stand - probably nowhere as most H.R teams play everything by the book but I do feel slightly hard done by for the reasons I've listed. Any further questions please ask as I may have missed something.

Were you told you could be accompanied to either meeting by a colleague or union rep?

Also, any advice on how to proceed from here would be fantastic too. College management rang me direct and gave me their blessing to continue on the course and will endeavour to find me employment through their contacts, which was the main thing for me career wise - but ''fraud'' or ''gross misconduct'' and ''falsifying timesheets'' aren't exactly comforting words in regards to finding a new job.

On the other hand, those might be ideal qualifications for some jobs. :grin:

Basically their reasoning is is that because my full day release had changed from a full day to a half day I should have attended work beforehand - however I was under the impression always that day release was exactly that and I put the standard 7.24 hours worked on my time sheet as that is the norm for whenever you're out of office all day on training/courses or even external convention things etc.

So essentially I was being ''fraudulent'' by claiming a extra 2-3 hours by putting 7.24 when my college was only from 1230-finish (usually 4.30-5).

Just how has Scrooge, Marley & Co. suffered any loss?

[bluebottle]

Re: Sacked for Gross Misconduct on Thursday. Few queries

I'm going to ask one of our Employment Law specialists to look in on this thread, BZ. Your employers appear not to have followed correct procedures by not holding a disciplinary meeting, but this is why I am going to ask one of our Employment Law specialists to look in.

Could you advise whether the HR rep was internal or external and who the note taker was? Was this note taker from within the company or outside?

[BZ14]

Re: Sacked for Gross Misconduct on Thursday. Few queries

I'm going to ask one of our Employment Law specialists to look in on this thread, BZ. Your employers appear not to have followed correct procedures by not holding a disciplinary meeting, but this is why I am going to ask one of our Employment Law specialists to look in.

Could you advise whether the HR rep was internal or external and who the note taker was? Was this note taker from within the company or outside?

Yeah - I had a meeting beforehand - here is the letter I was given.

''Further to the meeting that you attended on the 28th November 2013, I write to inform you that the investigating officer has now completed her investigations into the allegations which have been made against you. As a result of the investigation, the investigating officer has recommended that the Asssociation should proceed to a formal disciplinary hearing of these allegations against you''. That was the first hearing I attended and was sacked. The meeting lasted about 20 minutes and their decision took about 10 when I was asked to leave and then return.

The H.R rep was internal, and the note taker was also internal, as was the investigating officer and the member of management who made the final decision against me. I worked for a large company and the manager who made the decision was not part of my department. They did give me the option to have Union Rep or work colleague but I declined as I knew the outcome - call it a spidey sense.

[bluebottle]

Re: Sacked for Gross Misconduct on Thursday. Few queries

Okay, BZ. I have PMed a Beagle who is more familiar with Employment Law than I am to look in and advise on the procedures your former employers followed or, possibly, did not followed.

Did any of those who were at this meeting make available the evidence they claimed to have that would justify their allegations and subsequent actions? I have to say that making allegations of fraud and false accounting are fairly serious and if you don't have sufficient evidence to back up such allegations, it will come back and smack you in the face bloody hard. It can also have very serious consequences not only for the person the allegations are being made against, but those making the allegations. Any allegation of dishonesty should not be made without ensuring that evidence is in existence which can stand up to scrutiny and challenge by a legally-convened tribunal (which includes a court of law).

[BZ14]

Re: Sacked for Gross Misconduct on Thursday. Few queries

Okay, BZ. I have PMed a Beagle who is more familiar with Employment Law than I am to look in and advise on the procedures your former employers followed or, possibly, did not followed.

Did any of those who were at this meeting make available the evidence they claimed to have that would justify their allegations and subsequent actions? I have to say that making allegations of fraud and false accounting are fairly serious and if you don't have sufficient evidence to back up such allegations, it will come back and smack you in the face bloody hard. It can also have very serious consequences not only for the person the allegations are being made against, but those making the allegations. Any allegation of dishonesty should not be made without ensuring that evidence is in existence which can stand up to scrutiny and challenge by a legally-convened tribunal (which includes a court of law).

Well, I don't know much about employment law which is probably my downfall in not taking a rep - but essentially I guess they have solid evidence that my college had changed to half a day and I had put the blanket 7.24? However, I hand on heart never pre-meditated it and only ever put 7.24 as I was always implicitly told that was the blanket time for when being out of office/on training - I would hardly risk gross misconduct for the sake of not going into work from 8.45-11am. I know it's easy for me to say ''well, it's only 2 hours a week I missed (they wanted me in from 8.45-10.50/11)'', but I've been made to feel like I literally falsified hours upon hours out of the company and was pulling a ridiculous salary. Overall, I ''falsified'' at maximum 16 hours - which is 2 days of work. I feel slight mistreatment in the fact I was never given a chance to make up the time or anything - it was literally, ''well, it's considered fraud so we have no choice but to sack you for this''.

Additionally, I was never aware that college hadn't contacted work regarding the time change. I know it's not a ''he said/she said'' thing and only law and solid facts matter however I don't believe it's fair to place the burden on the student to have to inform their employer of this.

[Inca]

Re: Sacked for Gross Misconduct on Thursday. Few queries

I don't know much about Employment Law per se,,but speaking as a layperson I can see your companys point.
You should have told them as soon as the college hours changed as this would have reflected in your wage.

I can't see your argument about the college should have been courteous and told your company,,why would they? You're the student and employee,not them.
I also can't work out why you feel hard done by tbh,,you were being paid pro rata to you spending 7.24 hours out of office to attend college,,only you weren't attending college all that time so therefore you should have informed your employer straight away.
Your companies attitude is..We paid you for 7.24 hours per week when you were only entitled to 4-4.5 hours per fortnight,,therefore have falsely claimed wages you knew you weren't entitled to.

I suspect you know you should have told them,,you can't blame the college...and IF whats happened does fall under your companies 'gross misconduct' criteria and they've played by the book,then it's a sackable offence and it's a sackable offeence.
I note you haven't been there for 2 years yet which doesn't help your case.

Best advice,,,ring ACAS,,see what they say...but the only thing I see you can do is ask your company if you could have a decent reference,

[teaboy2]

Re: Sacked for Gross Misconduct on Thursday. Few queries

Thanks Bluebottle for Pming, me about this thread.

I have a few questions just to make sure i understand the full facts here.

1. What are your normal working hours per day?
2. What are the additional hours you spend traveling to college and back (including waiting for trains, but not including the time it takes you to get to work on a normal working day) - Extra traveling in these circumstances time is consider as working hours.
3. What was your average hours spent at college (not including travel time) when you were for full fay.
4. What was the start date and end date of the full day course and the start date and end date of the half day course (may need this to make calculations).
5. Have a look here at the ACAS code of conduct for disciplinary procedure, and tell me if you feel there is anything the employer failed to do, or fell short of doing properly - http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=2174 (Sorry but there is quite a bit of reading for you to do, though it is important).
6. You said in your first post, that under contract you were permitted 1 day release for college training. Was the course paid for by the employer? If such the college should have informed the employer of any changes.
7. Also under the terms of your contract in regards to the day release, was their any clause stating that should your course change to half day that you would only be entitled to half day release, or anything similar?
8. Who told you 7.24 was the blanket rate? Is it 7.24hrs as in 7hrs 15min?
9. Did you have any launch break at college, if so how long, and was this included or excluded from the 7.24 - Do you normally get paid or unpaid lunch break when at work?
10. When your coursed changed to half day every week from full day once every two weeks, did you claim 7.24 hours each week or just once every other week,, like you did when you were on the full day course once every two weeks?

I may have more questions later, once i have reread carefully through your thread. So if you can answer the above for now, that would be helpful.

I suspect based on them telling you to put 7.24 down when you were on full day release, and additional travel time involved, that the employer is the one that has defrauded you here, not the other way round. but i need clear and precise facts first.

When replying to the above, could you please highlight your answers in red or blue, as this makes it easier reading then just putting it in bold text.

[Inca]

Re: Sacked for Gross Misconduct on Thursday. Few queries

Personally,,I'd refrain from bandying words like 'defrauding' around.
And I'd get onto ACAS asap to get proper advice.
I'm only seeing black and white here..OP should have informed employer of change to college course,not expect:-
A) College to tell them
B) Someone should have noticed his casual attire.
C) OP gained time off and wages for time not spent at college and he KNEW that.

OP,get proper LEGAL advice and contact ACAS if you are not already in a union.

[bluebottle]

Re: Sacked for Gross Misconduct on Thursday. Few queries

Many thanks for looking in, TB. Much appreciated.

[BZ14]

Re: Sacked for Gross Misconduct on Thursday. Few queries

Thanks Bluebottle for Pming, me about this thread.

I have a few questions just to make sure i understand the full facts here.

1. What are your normal working hours per day? My Normal working hours are 8.45-5.15, and 8.45-4.45 on a Friday. The blanket 7.24 was the average for my 37 hour working week. So when we had staff events like a yearly forum thing we attended it was 7.24 for example.
2. What are the additional hours you spend traveling to college and back (including waiting for trains, but not including the time it takes you to get to work on a normal working day) - Extra traveling in these circumstances time is consider as working hours? It depends. Usually because my trains to and from college were every hour. Actual travel time on the train was 35-40 minutes each way.
3. What was your average hours spent at college (not including travel time) when you were for full fay.College started at 9.30am and finished about 5. Sometimes we'd get done earlier, but not like 2/3pm. Just depended on how the session went.
4. What was the start date and end date of the full day course and the start date and end date of the half day course (may need this to make calculations)I started the course in January, but my first induction my tutor couldn't actually get to college due to snow so I didn't ''offically'' start till Feb. I changed onto half day in October 13, and this was only a temporary thing till the first quarter of 2014 while we finished up the level I'm on and I was going back to full days. Funnily enough when I got to my induction at 9am and hung around for my tutor to no avail I rang my employer straight away - they said to just take it as a day off.
5. Have a look here at the ACAS code of conduct for disciplinary procedure, and tell me if you feel there is anything the employer failed to do, or fell short of doing properly - http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=2174 (Sorry but there is quite a bit of reading for you to do, though it is important) Will do. Thank you
6. You said in your first post, that under contract you were permitted 1 day release for college training. Was the course paid for by the employer? If such the college should have informed the employer of any changes. Yeah, the course was paid for by my employer and passing was a requirement as part of the job role. I actually worked there before just as apprentice and finished my NVQ Level 3 in business then applied for this job when it was advertised externally. College had never contacted work regarding a time-table change and never queried why I turned up in ''plain clothes''. I'm aware they're not CSI detectives however but not once even informally was I made aware college hadn't contacted my work. I wasn't too know any different.
7. Also under the terms of your contract in regards to the day release, was their any clause stating that should your course change to half day that you would only be entitled to half day release, or anything similar? Nothing. I mean the last girl that did day release on the same course was at a different college and never had half days, but from my end no I can't see anything that specifies any different.
8. Who told you 7.24 was the blanket rate? Is it 7.24hrs as in 7hrs 15mins? My manager. I was putting my normal flat working hours down when I was on full college days on my time sheet at first and putting ''college'' in the comments. He queried it as they sign them off and told me when I'm out of office on a course/training or even meetings if I was a manager it's always 7.24 regardless. Also, I'm guessing it's 7.24 mins? Only because when I do 7.24x5 it gives me 37.15 which is basically my weekly contracted hours.
9. Did you have any launch break at college, if so how long, and was this included or excluded from the 7.24 - Do you normally get paid or unpaid lunch break when at work? Good question. On full days I'm pretty sure a majority of the time we had a hour, and on half days we got 15 minutes. Lunch was unpaid - a average work day on our timesheet would be 8.45-12 1-5.15 and 7.30 hours.
10. When your coursed changed to half day every week from full day once every two weeks, did you claim 7.24 hours each week or just once every other week,, like you did when you were on the full day course once every two weeks? I put down 7.24 each week whenever I attended college. I totally understand from both point of views (my employer) and mine - however to me it was always a ''day release'' as part of my job role. If my times had changed to starting college at 8am and finishing at 6pm, then I would be told to put 7.24.

I may have more questions later, once i have reread carefully through your thread. So if you can answer the above for now, that would be helpful.

I suspect based on them telling you to put 7.24 down when you were on full day release, and additional travel time involved, that the employer is the one that has defrauded you here, not the other way round. but i need clear and precise facts first.

When replying to the above, could you please highlight your answers in red or blue, as this makes it easier reading then just putting it in bold text.

I'm not gonna point fingers but recently quite a few people in a different dept have lost their jobs because they were making a loss on their service, and one of the last things I did was submit our quarterly survey to the Statistics office. We have 20 less staff in this q3 than we did in q2 this financial year (about 315 > 290 odd). Sure, if they had no reason to pick me up on anything I wouldn't have been in this situation - but it does feel a bit out of character for them considering like I stated before I worked there for 9 months as a apprentice beforehand and still got the job over 8 people (i watched them all be interviewed in the room just across from me before mine!)

They also recently took all their property repairs in house, so took on a TON of new staff, vehicles, materials etc and through the grapevine it was costing them a ton. Again, not saying they were cutting costs, but it's something I've thought about.

I just feel to completely sack me on the spot a week before xmas knowing full well that I rent my own apartment and have no family within 200 miles is extremely harsh. Not saying employers SHOULD give people favours and leeway, I understand how the world works, but they didn't even give me a chance. I could understand if they put me on a final warning, put measures in place to closely monitor things like they should have and told me to make up the time. Even the investigating officer stated in the meeting with my manager (I have the notes from it) that as they're paying for it they should have had monthly diarised meetings with me regarding my progress and kept in the loop with college themselves.

I personally feel as if I've de-frauded the company out of 1000's and found it hurtful to say I broke their trust when I handle 1000£'s of physical money, peoples confidential details, have access to everyones salary, the safe, and so on. I know it's the principle and and not the amount of money they ''lost'' which I worked out at around 200£- but even so. Don't get me wrong I know I could have clarified matters even informally, but I hand on heart never mentioned it as to me it was always a day release and I did use the time beforehand to get back up to speed on my work. They asked me if I could physically prove this, but I said obviously I couldn't and my results speak for themselves so far (passed everything first time). The wage never mattered - I would have happily put 4 hours or whatever it was I attended college on my time sheet and had that as my day release. I would hardly have de-frauded my company for 8 hours a month on minimum wage.

I'm not becoming to bitter about it however, college have given me their blessing which was the main thing for me qualification wise as I was never guaranteed a job once my contract was over. The only concern of mine now is obviously getting something in the meantime ASAP, and when I do get asked for a interview or references I'm pretty much screwed already if they can basically inform potential employers I was sacked from gross misconduct for fraud.