Breach of confidence

[Gizler]

Hello, just a query. i found out verbally today that following a disciplinary for gross misconduct - a serious breach of confidence.
I was informed that I should have been summarily dismissed but due to my length of service and clean record I will be demoted and moved to another part of the service. Approx £6000 a year drop in salary.
I will be sent the findings in due course.
My question is, if my employer believes that I have breached confidence and they no longer trust me, then how can they still expect me to work for them?
It seems inconsistent.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Breach of confidence

Hi and welcome!

Without knowing the details it's hard to offer an opinion. :noidea: 'Breach of confidence' is a very generic term that can refer to almost anything, from leaking top secret documents :spy: to a spot of gossip with a mate. :gossip: Whatever it is, they will always regard it as serious, even when it's totally inconsenquential - believe me, I know all about that!

One thing that stands out is that you mention that, following a disciplinary for gross misconduct, you were told VERBALLLY that you would be demoted, etc. Surely the outcome of a disciplinary should be reported in writing! :typing: Otherwise how do you know what they are saying is actually true?

If they do decide to demote you, it may be because they are not confident that they have solid grounds for dismissal. I'm just guessing here, the new position could well be one where they don't think trust is that important, as an example (which may be totally irrelevant to your case), it could be, say, a move from working the till where you handle money all the time to stacking shelves.

We really need a few more details... :typing:

[enquirer]

Re: Breach of confidence

Hello, just a query. i found out verbally today that following a disciplinary for gross misconduct - a serious breach of confidence.

What was the breach of confidence?

I was informed that I should have been summarily dismissed but due to my length of service and clean record I will be demoted and moved to another part of the service. Approx £6000 a year drop in salary.

Is the allegation well founded?

My question is, if my employer believes that I have breached confidence and they no longer trust me, then how can they still expect me to work for them? It seems inconsistent.

Perhaps, although it could be argued that you have been moved to a less sensitive role - one in which you may still be usefully employed, but in which a lesser degree of trustworthiness is required.

[Gizler]

Re: Breach of confidence

Thanks for your replies; How did I know you'd want 'details'.

I'll try my hardest to keep it brief and very simple.
I work for the NHS and have a substantive contract. Like many areas the NHS and the local council operate as an integrated mental health service to provide services under what is called a section 75 agreement. This is where they pool resources social workers and nurses to provide a service to the community. So you'll have council employees working in a nhs team, managed by the NHS but paid by the council under the council terms and conditions.

The team I work in is a perfect example. It is an NHS team but we provide services to people that the council have traditionally supplied.
I also have a zero hours contract with the council for which I am paid the equivalent of what would be an extra increment if I was a council employee. This means that I participate on a rota to perform additional duties during my normal working hours for the NHS.

A couple of friends and I registered a company name in 2010. About a year ago we decided on what the company would do and the way it would look.
With advice the ideas started coming together last year. Simultaneously due to personal problems topped off by issues at work. I went on sick leave due to depression and anxiety. This was in August last year and I returned to work in January 2013.

While i was on sick leave I continued email correspondence with my friends and some of that was around our project as they continued developing things while I was unwell. If I felt able to contribute I did and if I didn't I wouldn't.
My friends got some money together and managed to expand things at make the business viable (no contracts mind you) but the company was ready to do business.

When I returned to work on a phased return, I sought advice from HR as to declaring a potential conflict of interest. The answer was very cloudy and there is no policy regarding this. I spoke with my manager informing her of all the details.
About one month later I was suspended from work and the reason given at the time was that due to a serious nature of the concern regarding my conduct through my involvement with another organisation My company.

Despite the fact that I asked time and time again what the concerns were i remained clueless as to what the allegations could be.

I had 2 fact finding meetings and all the questions were basically me justifying how sick I was, what and what I could or couldn't do while I was on sick leave etc.
A 3rd was planned which I didn't attend as I coudn't put myself through those questions again.

I found out from the Information commissioners office that a criminal investigation was under way due to the council alleging that while I was on sick leave I was working on my business. I put this to my employer and they then gave me a hearing date for the disciplinary.

The charges were;
a serious breach of confidence
fraudulent claim of sickness pay
a serious misuse of the organisation's property and resource

Regarding the sick pay, they maintain that I was not sick and even though my GP and their own occi health say i wasn't able to attend work due to the problems it was causing me, the fact that they have evidence that I sent emails during this time and returned phone calls, this means that I was able to have gone to work even on different duties.

The serious misuse of IT equipment; they did not use their own policy but that of the council's. I'm an NHS employee. They said that because I emailed my friends at their council employment, I was misusing the systems and encouraging my friends to do so to.

The arguments that my union rep and I made were totally disregarded as were my complaints about the process and the fact that I was suspended for 4 months before being told what the allegations were.

I received a phone call today because this is what i opted for as I didn't want to sit in front of the management and HR people again.

I raised a lot of complaints about how I felt I had been treated during this process and the cloak and dagger way they have gone about things, also it wasn't until the hearing that I found out for certain that it wasn't a criminal matter and the counter fraud people said that they wouldn't take things any further and it was up to my employers to undertake an internal investigation if they wished. If it's not criminal how can they still say that the fraud allegation is substantiated?

your views however honest are most welcome.

[charitynjw]

Re: Breach of confidence

Hi Gizler, & welcome to Legal Beagles.

Wow!

In my honest opinion.
First & foremost, this has got to be an Article 8 issue.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article...n_Human_Rights
http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/

Secondly, serious misuse of IT equipment usually concerns accessing pornograhy, etc.
There should be a written policy - what does that say?

Fraudulent claim? - what proof do they have which counters your GP's & OH's evidence?
SAR them, or CPR 31 https://www.justice.gov.uk/pre-trash...ld/_old/part31

Also, could you expand on
"I found out from the Information commissioners office that a criminal investigation was under way due to the council alleging that while I was on sick leave I was working on my business. I put this to my employer and they then gave me a hearing date for the disciplinary."

[wales01man]

Re: Breach of confidence

Am I reading this correctly,whilst off sick the OP was part of a company set up with some friends? were they using NHS equipment in NHS time to work or communicate with/for this company?

[charitynjw]

Re: Breach of confidence

Am I reading this correctly,whilst off sick the OP was part of a company set up with some friends? were they using NHS equipment in NHS time to work or communicate with/for this company?

The way I read it, Wales, while off sick, the level of communication & input into the venture was very 'on & off', depending on how OP could cope from time to time.

[wales01man]

Re: Breach of confidence

If that's true they were working whilst off sick and getting sick pay from the NHS I say that could be fraud

[charitynjw]

Re: Breach of confidence

If that's true they were working whilst off sick and getting sick pay from the NHS I say that could be fraud

I think they would need a bit more than a few emails that could have been sent from the sick bed.

Anyway, what hard proof is there?
Are they going to admit to 'phone/email tapping?
:spy:

[wales01man]

Re: Breach of confidence

I can see it would be hard to prove if that was all do we really think the NHS spends money on checking email and phone calls maybe there is more to this than is coming out could NHS info/emails been forwarded to this company as we are told all this is about a breach of confidence ?

[bluebottle]

Re: Breach of confidence

Some employers are their own worst enemies. Making allegations of fraud without good or sufficient evidence is a very serious matter indeed. I do not subscribe to the "reasonable belief" nonsense as, all too often, it is abused and leads to spurious allegations that would not stand up even in a civil court. I have said this a number of times and I will repeat that current Employment Law needs tearing up and completely re-writing so that it is fair to all parties involved.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Breach of confidence

Secondly, serious misuse of IT equipment usually concerns accessing pornograhy, etc.
There should be a written policy - what does that say?

Not necessarily. Usually when you log on to a corporate network, there's a little message box that says: "access to this system is for authorised business purposes only..." or words to that effect. That leaves the door open for anything they may regard as not legitimate business purposes, to be construed as misuse of IT equipment. Doing your own work or running your own business would very likely fall into that category.

[charitynjw]

Re: Breach of confidence

Not necessarily. Usually when you log on to a corporate network, there's a little message box that says: "access to this system is for authorised business purposes only..." or words to that effect. That leaves the door open for anything they may regard as not legitimate business purposes, to be construed as misuse of IT equipment. Doing your own work or running your own business would very likely fall into that category.

But would it be Gross Misconduct?
I don't think it appears in the ACAS Guide.
See p31 of attachement

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Breach of confidence

A couple of friends and I registered a company name in 2010. About a year ago we decided on what the company would do and the way it would look.
With advice the ideas started coming together last year. Simultaneously due to personal problems topped off by issues at work. I went on sick leave due to depression and anxiety. This was in August last year and I returned to work in January 2013.

While i was on sick leave I continued email correspondence with my friends and some of that was around our project as they continued developing things while I was unwell. If I felt able to contribute I did and if I didn't I wouldn't.
My friends got some money together and managed to expand things at make the business viable (no contracts mind you) but the company was ready to do business.

When I returned to work on a phased return, I sought advice from HR as to declaring a potential conflict of interest. The answer was very cloudy and there is no policy regarding this. I spoke with my manager informing her of all the details.
About one month later I was suspended from work and the reason given at the time was that due to a serious nature of the concern regarding my conduct through my involvement with another organisation My company.

Despite the fact that I asked time and time again what the concerns were i remained clueless as to what the allegations could be.

I had 2 fact finding meetings and all the questions were basically me justifying how sick I was, what and what I could or couldn't do while I was on sick leave etc.
A 3rd was planned which I didn't attend as I coudn't put myself through those questions again.

I found out from the Information commissioners office that a criminal investigation was under way due to the council alleging that while I was on sick leave I was working on my business. I put this to my employer and they then gave me a hearing date for the disciplinary.

The charges were;
a serious breach of confidence
fraudulent claim of sickness pay
a serious misuse of the organisation's property and resource

Regarding the sick pay, they maintain that I was not sick and even though my GP and their own occi health say i wasn't able to attend work due to the problems it was causing me, the fact that they have evidence that I sent emails during this time and returned phone calls, this means that I was able to have gone to work even on different duties.

The serious misuse of IT equipment; they did not use their own policy but that of the council's. I'm an NHS employee. They said that because I emailed my friends at their council employment, I was misusing the systems and encouraging my friends to do so to.

I had a similar experience and, for those out there reading this, it was in 2001, so it's no longer of any relevance which is why I can post about it freely, 12 years later.

At the time I was signed off with stress for around 8 weeks, due to working night shifts and not sleeping, and it was a company appointed GP who signed me off rather than my local GP. During this time, I built a website which was basically my portfolio, I didn't register a company at the time because I had a friend and often did work through his company, but I wasn't officially a director or anything.

When I returned to work, I was approached by my line manager's boss, who said they were aware I had been 'subcontracting my services' while I was supposed to be 'convalescing'. I said that wasn't the case at all, I had built a website but it was my own, therefore I wouldn't have got paid for doing it. I also said I had been signed off as unfit to work due to stress and that building a portfolio for myself, at my own relaxed pace, was therapeutic for me. My main argument was that no money had ever changed hands therefore there could be no question that I had been 'working' whilst on sick leave. In the absence of any proof to the contrary, the argument couldn't be refuted and their allegations were put to bed.

When you emailed your friends, did you do so from home? Because if you were using YOUR OWN IT systems rather than theirs, they can't say you were misusing THEIR systems! You could always say at times you felt bored/lonely/isolated and that's why you emailed them, not necessarily because you were doing business with them.

If there is no proof that you made any money out of offering your services whilst being on sick leave, I can't see any grounds for a criminal investigation. :nono:

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Breach of confidence

But would it be Gross Misconduct?
I don't think it appears in the ACAS Guide.
See p31 of attachement

It all depends on what your contract and terms of employment say on the subject. Employers can set their own rules. In the end, it's all at their discretion. They may well turn a blind eye to something that would clearly be a sackable offence for years if they are otherwise happy with you and your work, once they decide they want to get rid of you, they'll go hunting around for a reason. :sad: