Nasty accusations - SAR?

[kaput]

Hi,

A former employer of mine has made a number of baseless and untrue accusations. They claim to have a huge body of evidence to support their accusations. Can I use a Subject Access Request to obtain this evidence?

Cheers

[MissFM]

Re: Nasty accusations - SAR?

Hello Kaput and!

I would've thought you should but no doubt a more genned-up Beagle will be along shortly.

[charitynjw]

Re: Nasty accusations - SAR?

Hi,

A former employer of mine has made a number of baseless and untrue accusations. They claim to have a huge body of evidence to support their accusations. Can I use a Subject Access Request to obtain this evidence?

Cheers

Hi kaput, & welcome to Legal Beagles.

Verbally, or in writing? (ie, what proof do you have concerning this 'claim'?)

[kaput]

Re: Nasty accusations - SAR?

Hi charitynjw,

Their accusations were sent to me in writing.

[charitynjw]

Re: Nasty accusations - SAR?

Ok, thanks.

The biggy - what do you want to do about it?

[bluebottle]

Re: Nasty accusations - SAR?

Charity,

I am wondering if the OP may benefit from the case where it was ruled the Civil Procedures Rules supersede the Data protection Act. It will, of course, be down to the OP how they wish to deal with the matter.

[kaput]

Re: Nasty accusations - SAR?

Well I'm currently pursuing them for unpaid wages and unfair dismissal, and I consider the untrue accusations (which came with legal threats and a claim of blackmail) to be their attempt at deterring me from taking my planned action against them.

With regards to the accusations, what courses of action are there? My thinking behind the SAR is to call their bluff, as they can have no evidence for things that simply didn't happen.

[bluebottle]

Re: Nasty accusations - SAR?

Kaput,

I'm a retired policeman. In order to prove Blackmail, it has to be proven that a person is -

1. Making an unwarranted demand in that the person making the demand has no right in law to make it; and
2. They are using threats as a means of enforcing the demand and that the use of threats is improper.

What are they claiming the Blackmail relates to, please? Also, is it HR making these allegations or some so-called HR consultant? Please be aware that these creatures tend to overlook other areas of the law and, as a result, get themselves and employers into all sorts of grief.

[charitynjw]

Re: Nasty accusations - SAR?

Well I'm currently pursuing them for unpaid wages and unfair dismissal, and I consider the untrue accusations (which came with legal threats and a claim of blackmail) to be their attempt at deterring me from taking my planned action against them.

With regards to the accusations, what courses of action are there? My thinking behind the SAR is to call their bluff, as they can have no evidence for things that simply didn't happen.

At first blush......(my thoughts)

There are two separate issues.

1 - the unfair/wrongful dismissal matters
2 - potentially defamatory statements (& your subjective opinion re 'blackmail' - or did they state/strongly insinuate this?)

Defamation would require proof that the info has been published to others & your reputation may have been damaged as a result.
The 'blackmail' issue is, I think, at this stage, just subjective speculation.

As to the other matters, (ie, 1 above), it would be helpful if you could give more detail.

[kaput]

Re: Nasty accusations - SAR?

Hi bluebottle,

Using those two points from S.21 of the Theft Act is exactly how I argued against the accusation.

Their claim of blackmail relates to my demand for unpaid wages, and malice of threatening to use the courts or tribunals service to enforce my demand. I am owed money, and both statute and my contract back me up, so my demand is not unwarranted. And the courts/tribunals service is the correct way of enforcing my demand (i.e. letting a judge decide).

[Edit]
These allegations were made by the MD.

[Edit 2]

your subjective opinion re 'blackmail' - or did they state/strongly insinuate this?)

Yes, they strongly stated that they were being blackmailed (by me).

[Eloise01]

Re: Nasty accusations - SAR?

They aren't necessarily two separate issues! It wouldn't be the first time that I have heard a former employee describe a perfectly lawful letter from an employer they are suing, or their solicitor, in such terms. Until there is some evidence to the contrary we are dealing with a broken employment relationship and the laws attached to that - not criminal law. So if, for example, the employer says "your claim is a thinly veiled attempt to extort a settlement, and we have no intention of offering you a penny" - is that an allegation of blackmail? And if that is what someone is doing, is that blackmail? Not in law no - but in intent?

And if you are already taking your employer to a tribunal, or threatening to, then don't be surprised if you get legal threats back. That is par for the course, and if you can't take the heat you shouldn't go in the kitchen...


Sorry, but seriously, even if information is held on you, you cannot SAR evidence which someone is using /potentially using in a legal case - that is what disclosure is for. There are exceptions to SAR's, and that is one of them.

This sounds like a fairly typical "he said / she said" form of debate that often surrounds a contentious termination. Kaput is saying the employer unfairly dismissed and didn't pay them - the employer says that isn't true and kaput did XYZ. If there is substance to the OP's claim then they should concentrate on the main issues and the legal actions surrounding that. Not get distracted by heated exchanges. Because the place this will resolve is in the main issues, not the heated exchanges, of which there are likely to be quite a few.

Edit...

Having just seen post #10, I rest my case.

[kaput]

Re: Nasty accusations - SAR?

Sorry, but seriously, even if information is held on you, you cannot SAR evidence which someone is using /potentially using in a legal case - that is what disclosure is for. There are exceptions to SAR's, and that is one of them.

And this is why I started this thread, which has strayed somewhat from my original question.

I know that, at some point, I have to see the evidence against me in order to form a defence. I wondered if I could use a SAR for this purpose, but obviously not. What is disclosure? When does it happen?

I know for a fact I am not guilty of any of the accusations made against me, and I was looking for a way to call their bluff and stop the shenanigans and made-up accusations so that they will pay me what they owe.

My problem right now is that the non-payment of wages (and holiday) has left me with no money to live on. I have £5 in the bank and the job centre completely messed up the application I made over a month ago for benefits, they're trying everything they can not to back-pay what they owe me.

I need my unpaid wages ASAP. The UD claim can take as long as it takes.

And if you are already taking your employer to a tribunal, or threatening to, then don't be surprised if you get legal threats back. That is par for the course, and if you can't take the heat you shouldn't go in the kitchen...

Believe me, I am committed to my course of action and I am not scared by their tactics. The fact that they've even resorted to this type of response is proof enough to me that they are the ones running scared.

[Eloise01]

Re: Nasty accusations - SAR?

So can a claim for unpaid wages! Especially since it appears that it may be a linked claim.

Disclosure is the provision of documents which you need for your case and/or documents the other party intends to rely on in court. The dates for this are set by the court, usually at a case management discussion.

The honest answer is that if they dispute that they owe you the money, it will take as long as it takes and at least several weeks. But I am uncomfortable in giving detailed advice here because my post was based on a "good guess" about what was going on simply because I've heard it a thousand times. What I cannot do is guess the details of what you allege and what the employer alleges back! And those matters are pertinent as to the appropriate route. Have you submitted a claim for unfair dismissal - you do know that it will cost to submit a claim within a very short number of weeks?

[kaput]

Re: Nasty accusations - SAR?

I haven't yet submitted the UD claim. I was led to believe that submitting the ET1 is currently free. How much does this cost?

I'm currently gearing up to make the claim for unpaid wages, but Acas have offered conciliation and I'm trying that route first.

The problem is they haven't disputed they owe me money, they just won't pay it. I've asked them on what grounds have they chosen not to pay what is owed, but they will not elaborate. Originally, they tried to get out of it by arguing that my contract was fixed-term and as they have not renewed it no payments are due (although as I understand it, the end date of a fixed-term contract is not in and of itself suitable as the objective justification to not renew, and in such a case statutory redundancy would be payable). However, my contract is not fixed-term as it has no end date or objective. My Acas advisor agreed that it did not sound like a fixed-term contract.

It was just hours after I blew their fixed-term argument out of the water that all of the ridiculous accusations came flooding in. The business is struggling and I know that they were/are considering redundancies. I don't think they believe they have legitimate grounds for not paying me, I think they simply don't want to because they can't afford it.

[Eloise01]

Re: Nasty accusations - SAR?

It won't be free in three weeks. Which is cutting it fine.

Since you have ACAS mediation (I trust this is what you mean. Never depend on a thing the phone line tells you!) then deal with them. But if there is no money, there is no chance now you will see it so I hope you are wrong! If they go into administration before a tribunal claim is accepted, you are an unsecured creditor.