Being on call / stand by

[shiftworker]

Hello,

I'm new to the forum and had a couple of quick questions.

Got told today my shift will be changing.

The proposed shifts consists of;

3 early 12 hours shifts (7am - 7pm) , followed by....

3 days off...

3 Late 12 hour shifts (11am - 11pm)...

Then instead of 3 days of you are on stand by for 3 days, and all we get for it is an allowance of less than half a days pay per month and flat rate over time if required, which I know will be fairly often as there is not enough staff to cover the work, hence the need for people to be on call.

Main question is....Does this sound acceptable?

It leaves a potential for 9 12 hour shifts in a row with only 3 rest days working around dangerous equipment and driving and being around moving vehicles.

Any comments welcome.

The company basically have to cover 7am-11pm, 7 days a week with 20 people and want 5 per shift. With the high potential of work often starting before and after the said hours. Any shift genius out there have any ideas?

Thanks

[Eloise01]

Re: Being on call / stand by

You need to read up the working time regulations as they impact on your working hours - but what is "acceptable" within the legal framework is down to the employer and you, and what you agree to. Work starting early or finishing late on a 12 hour shift would be problemmatic to say the least - you must have 11 hours of rest between shifts, and while occasional additional hours may be compensated for at a later time, regular ones are simply not permitted.

Do you not have a union?

[shiftworker]

Re: Being on call / stand by

Thanks,

Yes we have a union. To be fair the company have always accepted the 11 hour between shift rule.

I think the main concern is the fact we could end up working a set of 9x 12 hour shifts with no rest days.

[Eloise01]

Re: Being on call / stand by

That is theoretically possible yes - you are entitled to one days rest per week, but it is possible to arrange that to mean that someone works more than six days before getting that rest period. But this is matter that you and the union need to address with the employer, particularly if this may lead to safety concerns.

[shiftworker]

Re: Being on call / stand by

Thanks,

Another thing. Apparently we will do 38.5 hours per week on average over the year, and this is what we are paid for.

The way I see it is we will do 33 hours on our 3 days on (excluding lunch) and i might be getting the wrong but after the 3 days off our new shift will start on the 7th day which will mean we have done 44 hours over a 7 day period.

i may have that second bit wrong, but the first bit is 100% correct, so ok they can make you do overtime / standby for the 5.5 hours you need to make up but can they force you to go over that and cover 3 12 hour shifts? and have we not already gone over our hours by doing 44 hours in a 7 day period?

Sorry if thats confusing haha.

[Eloise01]

Re: Being on call / stand by

Yes, it's confusing. But the answer is the same - within the limitations of the working time regulations then they can arrange the hours as they wish. And there is nothing that says you can't work 44 hours in a seven day period. If your hours regularly exceed 48 on average, then you must sign the opt out, but it does not sound liake that will be the case.

It seems the question you are trying to get at here is can they force you to work these hours? The answer is, probably yes. If the change is very significant then it may constitute unfair dismissal. But all that leaves you is unemployed and with a very risky case of unfair dismissal (and probably no reference!).

[shiftworker]

Re: Being on call / stand by

Yes, it's confusing. But the answer is the same - within the limitations of the working time regulations then they can arrange the hours as they wish. And there is nothing that says you can't work 44 hours in a seven day period. If your hours regularly exceed 48 on average, then you must sign the opt out, but it does not sound liake that will be the case.

It seems the question you are trying to get at here is can they force you to work these hours? The answer is, probably yes. If the change is very significant then it may constitute unfair dismissal. But all that leaves you is unemployed and with a very risky case of unfair dismissal (and probably no reference!).

It's not so much working the hours when you're rostered on shift and getting paid for it, more a case of can they have you sitting at home on the 3 days off waiting by the phone incase you are needed, unpaid. And then be forced to come in and do overtime even if you dont want the overtime. I'm sure this can't be right.

Can you be on call out outside your working hours? Surely not.

[Eloise01]

Re: Being on call / stand by

"On call" is almost always "outside your working hours" - you wouldn't need to be on call if it was your working hours! But the answer is yes, you can be contractually obliged to be on call, and you can be contractually obliged to work overtime. Many people are!

[shiftworker]

Re: Being on call / stand by

"On call" is almost always "outside your working hours" - you wouldn't need to be on call if it was your working hours! But the answer is yes, you can be contractually obliged to be on call, and you can be contractually obliged to work overtime. Many people are!

OK, but am I right in thinking you can refuse to work more than an average of 48 hours over a 17 week period?

[Eloise01]

Re: Being on call / stand by

If you refuse to sign an opt out, then yes. Although it would be over 48 hours per week averaged over 17 weeks (working 48 hours over 17 weeks wouldn't be much!) - and on call time away from the workplace, such as you describe, isn't counted in the hours. And that is assuming that you aren't in an excluded group, which I do not know.

But if it turned out that the hours averaged more than 48 per week - are you in a position to refuse to sign the opt-out or refuse to work overtime or whatever? We are sailing around what can and can't be done - the fact is that an employer can do almost anything if the workers agree to it. So what is the purpose here - what are you really asking? Are you looking for ways to sabotage the shift system suggested? Are the employees planning to refuse it? Or what? It would actually help you if we knew why you are asking the questions rather than having a list of questions on the theory of employment law.

[shiftworker]

Re: Being on call / stand by

If you refuse to sign an opt out, then yes. Although it would be over 48 hours per week averaged over 17 weeks (working 48 hours over 17 weeks wouldn't be much!) - and on call time away from the workplace, such as you describe, isn't counted in the hours. And that is assuming that you aren't in an excluded group, which I do not know.

But if it turned out that the hours averaged more than 48 per week - are you in a position to refuse to sign the opt-out or refuse to work overtime or whatever? We are sailing around what can and can't be done - the fact is that an employer can do almost anything if the workers agree to it. So what is the purpose here - what are you really asking? Are you looking for ways to sabotage the shift system suggested? Are the employees planning to refuse it? Or what? It would actually help you if we knew why you are asking the questions rather than having a list of questions on the theory of employment law.

Well not 1 person wants to do this shift. At present half the staff are on 1 shift and half on another, the company wants us all to be on the same shift but there is simply not enough people to cover the work this way hence the need for stand by cover.

What can we do if nobody agree's to the change?

They have changed shifts before, about a year ago and at the time nobody wanted to change shift and we were basically told if we don't like it...leave.

Nobody signed the contract but they said that since we worked and was getting paid by the company then we had in theory signed the shift.

[Eloise01]

Re: Being on call / stand by

And they were correct - and the same will no doubt happen here. Yes, the employer can enforce these changes. You, collectively, have to decide what you are going to do if they do - that is the point of being in a union. Are you willing to take action against the employer to prevent them from doing this, along with any risks that entails? Because in the end that is what it comes down to. If you cannot achieve a negotiated settlement, it is down to whether you are prepared to stick together in that resolve and what you are prepared to do about it.

[shiftworker]

Re: Being on call / stand by

Just to bump this up, I've actually slightly come round t the idea when I realised putting in 6 days holidays gives me 15 off! Result.


Anyway a couple of questions. Is there any minimum payment you have to get for being "on call"

And I noticed in the EU directive that employees are entitled to 24 hours off every 7 days. So could we refuse to work 9 days straight if we were to be called in on each of our stand by days.

Cheers.

[Eloise01]

Re: Being on call / stand by

Just to bump this up, I've actually slightly come round t the idea when I realised putting in 6 days holidays gives me 15 off! Result. Always a good idea to be careful what you ask for in case you get it - and vice versa.!


Anyway a couple of questions. Is there any minimum payment you have to get for being "on call" If the "on call" time is not on the employers premises, then there is no entitlement to any pay at all.

And I noticed in the EU directive that employees are entitled to 24 hours off every 7 days. So could we refuse to work 9 days straight if we were to be called in on each of our stand by days. Broadly speaking, yes, although there is provision for occasional "ignoring" of the WTR's - but only where compensatory rest is given at a later stage and as soon as possible after the event. The WTR's recognise that there can be circumstances where it is not practically possible to stick to the the entire time - but this should be an occasional exception and not the rule.

Cheers.

The most effective way of dealing with issues is not to rely on the law - that ought to be for a fall back. It's the minimum. You should be working out what is safe and reasonable and trying to negotiate from that position.